Turn 1 run off at PI

[Rachel Richards]

Now, let me preface this with a disclaimer: I have been madly googling for 20 minutes now trying to find a link to verify the Santa Pod bit, sadly to no avail.

A few years back,(early-mid 90's) there was a very nasty Top Fuel car crash at Eastern Creek (when it had a drag strip) that saw a bloke called (IIRC), Wayne Missingham suffer some serious injuries.

He suffered the misfortune of a stuck throttle, and proceeded to drive (at more than 200 MPH) past the end of the strip (up the hill, the strip ran opposite direction to the circuit) through the runoff, through the site boundary fence, coming to a sudden stop into a very large fallen tree trunk, at least 100 meters into the paddock next door.

This prompted much discussing in Drag Racing circles about sand traps and catch fences etc.

It also prompted the relaying of an incident at Santa Pod Drag strip in England,in the early 90's in which "Pommy" Steve Read had a similar 200 odd MPH crash in an Funny Car, but the essential difference was the stopping method.

It was reported that at Santa Pod, Read drove off the track end into a sand pit that contained very deep, very soft sand, but importantly was considerably lower ( 2 foot, IIRC) than the edge of the track.

This apparently saw the car utilise gravity, and drop down (despite the incredible speed) into the soft sand, which then pulled it up very quickly, without injury or major damage.

I believe the car only needed a new body (not considered major damage in drag circles), but all the crew had to do was blow the sand out of the chassis/motor, and it competed the next day !

Now I understand how so many of you will want to tell me how special V8 Supercars are, and how this wouldn’t work because they are not Funny Cars.


I did a bit of basic physics calculations, and with speed & weight differences, the V8 carries more force, than a Funny Car. [91000 to 71000 newtons]

But when things that matter are taken into account, ie: Friction, there wouldn’t be much difference in pulling either vehicle up.


The success (or failure) of any sand/gravel trap has always been how 'fluffy' the sand/stones are. (and the smaller the stones helps, as mentioned above). Hence the reason that some tracks 'plough' the gravel traps in the week before a meeting.

Phillip Island clearly have some soul searching to do; do they want to be a car track, or a bike track? As the old saying goes, you can’t be half pregnant.

While trying to appease two masters, the FIM, and the FIA, via their local bodies, MA & CAM$, it seems that they are not succeeding with either, given the comments raised by PVDA about the gravel not being liked by the bike guys.

Before you choose to comment to any of this tripe I have assembled above, think about what we would all be saying if there had been a major collision at T 3 between Cam & Bezzy.

I’d almost say the earthmovers would be arriving tomorrow.......

[Woolley]

Very surprised the gravel didn't do more to stop the car, in fact once it had left the gravel it was still continuing at considerable speed. Suggest the gravel isn't deep enough and doesn't extend far enough over as he missed a lot of it. However, as said above, that can launch a sideways car into a rollover (I don't think Cam had much choice about its direction or angle) so you're already balancing probabilities.

IMO a car shouldn't be able to cross another fast section of track at right angles, so additional stopping is really required. Armco with a good deep layer of tyres banded together does the job efficiently and comparatively safely.

[marcus]

was a very scary incident for sure and Im glad Cam is Ok if not shaken.

Some good thoughts here for sure and I certainly dont claim to be any expert of safety but an uphill gradient would surely help in some way , I certainly hope they dont decide to try and slow the cars down entering turn 1 in any way because its surely one of the best turns in the country.

I also havent been to Phillip Island so I am not sure of the layout but would a re-configuration of turn 3 be any chance of a possibility ?

I know we shouldnt just change tracks for the sake of it but is there enough land on the outside to perhaps a change of angle or something ?

I guess that would hopefully be a last case choice and definately not ideal.
I dont like the idea of catch fencing though because they have to be held up by something (wooden stake or steel picket which could easilly penetrate a car window or door)

the only problem with an uphill gradient that I could see is we already have an almighty ditch there and it may not be much but an incline could add another 3 or 4 feet to that drop which could be very bad if a car managed to make it through the gravel trap and then it could still end up on the track again.

so it looks as if some kind of barrier would be a logical fix but having said that hitting a fence at the speed Cam was going would be very bad news indeed.

I simply dont know the answer but surely they will and are looking at it but just wanted to say there are some good thoughts in this thread and glad we all have safety as a number 1 priority.

[PVDA]

When PI was originally built it was dead flat with the marshals & track at the same level separated by grass.......

When it was rebuilt in the 80's they cut into the outfield to create an earth bank between the track and the infield & outfield.

This was how they separated the Turn 1 & Turn 3 areas back then.

In the early 90's they levelled out the bank on the Turn 1 side to what we see today and the "drop" is still on the Turn 3 side and you could see that as Cam jumped it just before he crossed the track at Turn 3. The gravel trap followed later as well.

Those with long memories will remember Wayne Gardner punting Larry Perkins off at Turn 1 many years ago (before the gravel trap was put in) and Larry trying to take a short cut to catch Gardner only be become beached on the drop at Turn 3.

[Silver 3]

Catch type tyre wall could be anchored in the ground--ie no stakes etc--so there was considerable give in it. Not sure about FIA etc on that topic. Any sort of solid wall could precipitate a far worse problem.
It could also possible be built with a series of angles so as not to be at right angle to trajectory of high speed exit from T1. I would be looking at something like this to protect track from T2 to T4 .
Previously I posted about changing the gravel trap so that it rose in height--this only needs to be about 2.4 metres over about 30-40 metres.It also would need extending in width & depth. I am confident that would do it.
The material in the traps are rocks-ridiculous size that cause a lot of damage to cars when strewn around the track. They are commonly about 25mm jagged missles. They are apparently FIM requirement--hard to believe to me -but I have been told that by numerous people who should know.I have seen bikes ride across them often-so it makes you wonder how they were specced.
The point being, smaller gravel would be easier to sink into-and I would have thought more effective-for both cars and bikes.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Would a catch net like what is used at the end of the braking area at most drag strips (after the sand trap) work? Would stop cars coming back onto the track and would be a softer impact than hitting an earth bank.
Only problem would be the logistics in repairing/replacing catch net during a race, could also be removed if not required for bike races.

Or the 'safer' barriers used in NASCAR? Or do they only work more for side on impacts you see in super speedways?

Catch fencing used to be in widespread usage especially in Europe if you watch early 80s Formula 1 videos you can see it in use. As you say its difficult to repair, and after a driver was killed by one of the pole/stays that help keep it upright it fell out of favour very quickly.

[motorfoto]

I believe the answer has already been used at Queensland Raceway.

In the centre of Turn 3 and 6 are rows of tyre bundles to prevent cars crossing the path of cars on other sections of track. These are constructed with 5 tyres stacked vertical, with the sidewalls bolted together with bolts and nuts. This bundle is placed alongside another vertical bundle and chained together at the top and bottom using more bolts and nuts. A staggered pattern is then continued for 20m in length, chaining each stack to it's four neighboring stacks.

These bundles can be dragged into place with a tractor (looks like a caterpillar), and provide a very effective barrier (& energy dissipator) in an impact, but without the downsides of a solid barrier.

Placing a number of rows of such barriers would reduce the cars speed in a progressive manner (controlled by the length of each row), to bring it safely to a stop.

The first row would be bundles 5m long, second row 10m behind the first row would be 10m long, and the third row also 10m behind would be bundles 20m long.

The first row of barriers would be certainly destroyed in a high speed impact as the energy is absorbed by breaking the chains and bolts, but as the walls are impacted that car would be slowed progressively as the length of the barriers provides increasing mass and resistance.

Cleanup after an accident takes time to push all the bundles back into line with 4WD's or tractors, but less time than a Coronial Inquiry.

These tyre buffer bundles are not cheap to build, as it is very labour intensive, but they are easily moved about with tractors, so could be removed for the bike racing.

Scrap tyres are cheap, but they do cost a lot to transport (bulky with lots of air inside). You should use the same size tyre throughout and if you pick the size used by taxi's, there is an almost unlimited supply.

The FIA (Google is your friend) specification for gravel trap material is "rounded river stones of diameter less than 19mm". Using crushed angular rock or stones larger that 19mm is not as effective. The effect you want is like those childrens playpens full of balls, the stones cannot carry any weight and roll and slip against each other.

Gravel traps in my opinion are only effective below 100km/h. At higher speeds the car will simply skip over the surface. That's why you see many overseas tracks have now paved the intital runoff area, but retained the last 50% of the gravel trap.

I await a Christmas Card from Mr L. Fox.

Now back to the lab.

[TWRv12]

Serious questions must asked about CAMS ability to perform track safety inspections. Yet again they are found wanting, this time luckily no one was hurt.

There is a safety barrier could be used at turn one that would be alot better than the current farcial arrangement.

In 2006 the FIA Institute developed an award winning high speed barrier. If you noticed any F1 cars off at the second chicane at Monza, it was in use there. Maybe thats what should be at PI turn one.

[TWRv12]

Tech Pro and Aplina make the barriers I mentioned in the previous post.

[Silver 3]

The problem with any wall is that it cannot be at right angles to the main straight.If it is too close to T1 then potential impact speed is massive.If it was used to protect the section from T2 to T4 then an incident like McConville's he would have cleared the fence!
This particular case has no simple solution and probably needs a combination of a few different methods deployed .
The fence shown I would like to see in a lot of places at P.Is--- particularly on the inside of the circuit at the exit of Siberia , outside thru the Hayshed, straight ahead at MG--to name a few.

[TWRv12]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The problem with any wall is that it cannot be at right angles to the main straight.If it is too close to T1 then potential impact speed is massive.If it was used to protect the section from T2 to T4 then an incident like McConville's he would have cleared the fence!
This particular case has no simple solution and probably needs a combination of a few different methods deployed .
The fence shown I would like to see in a lot of places at P.Is--- particularly on the inside of the circuit at the exit of Siberia , outside thru the Hayshed, straight ahead at MG--to name a few.

In 2006 the FIA High Speed Barrier was good for 220km/h impacts. Probably a bit better now.

Couple of videos showing it in action
http://www.tecpro.us/f1/english/tracks.php

[Woolley]

The way they do tyre stacks on American street circuits should work - about three deep, fastened together, a gap behind and then another several deep up against an armco barrier. They take out a lot of energy without inflicting any nasty damage and are easily put back afterwards. Also take a look at things like the exit of the first corner at Hockenheim. A deeper gravel trap made with the lighter gravel that makes a bow wave instead of digging in would help, and especially if it's extended to the full width so that the car doesn't miss half of it.

The most important thing is to get the car stopped without crossing the track, though. a T-bone at those speeds is probably the most dangerous possiblility and was only marginally avoided.

[Tourer]

It was possibly made worse on the weekend by the wet weather in the lead up to the race meeting. Tends to get into the gravel and compress it down so that the gravel becomes less effective.

Barriers in this area would probably need to be removable to satisfy the bike guys so that limits options as well. The Tecpro etc might work but then again, may not - even though they are rated at 220kmh that is for F1 cars and a V8 Supercar weighs more than twice as much but will still do well in excess of those speeds - the mass of the Supercar might be too much for those barriers at that kind of speed.

Will be interesting to see what solutions can be found and if implementation is possible before the rumoured November race meeting.

[DAVID PATERSON]

I think motorfoto is right on the money. The tyre walls on the infield at QR work very well.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. In 2007 I hit a wall of empty tyres bolted together, at 150km/h and walked away unhurt. In 2008 I hit an earthfilled tyre wall at 90km/h and i'm still in pain.

[GTRMagic]

A wall would have killed me

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I think motorfoto is right on the money. The tyre walls on the infield at QR work very well.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. In 2007 I hit a wall of empty tyres bolted together, at 150km/h and walked away unhurt. In 2008 I hit an earthfilled tyre wall at 90km/h and i'm still in pain.

Sorry guys but-- where is the potential at QR to cross the infield to another section of the track at 200 plus kmh? There isnt is the answer.
I appreciate the sentiments expressed-- but as Cam says in the press release-- a wall would not have been a good result.
I would say a preventative wall as the LAST catch option is needed -- it is what is before it that can minimise that impact(if you ever got there with the other new measures we expect to see)
On thinking about it I think you are talking about the brake area on the back straight and brake failure there-correct? Not saying it hasn't happened there-I cannott recall seeing anyone run out of room there?? Where the issue is slightly different is that the speeds at P Is are significently higher.

[motorfoto]

The tyre bundled walls I'm suggesting would be 20m beyond the gravel traps at PI, not near the track edge of turn 1.

The FIA systems require a long run of expensive factory (made only in Europe) barriers fixed at the ends. Not easy to remove quickly for bikes.

The gravel traps at QR are also more effective as they rise from the track and are composed of "rounded river gravel" that meets the FIA specification. There are not many sources of river gravel on Philip Island, so they have to live with what they can get.

At QR, the tyre bundles (drivers right) approaching turn 3 are to arrest a vehicle that may turn hard right on brake application (say exploded rotor), and cross the infield to meet traffic head on travelling from turn 3 to turn 4. The V8's are doing around 260-270km/h when the hit the brakes at Turn 3. The buffers between turns 3 & 6 are there for the same reason. There are also bundles to arrest a car going straight ahead at turn 4 from crossing the track between turn 1 & 2. You may need to look at a track map to understand all this.

[retro]

Originally Posted by TWRv12

In 2006 the FIA High Speed Barrier was good for 220km/h impacts. Probably a bit better now.

Couple of videos showing it in action
http://www.tecpro.us/f1/english/tracks.php

[retro]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

A wall would have killed me

...

It is widely believed that the circuit will again host a V8 event in six weeks time as the replacement to Bahrain, and McConville said he will gladly offer advice to make sure anything that can be fixed will be fixed before then

[GTRMagic]

And when it isnt fixed, because the FIA/CAMS would need to re-assess the circuit for compliance in the meantime, will Mr McConville strap on his skid lid and race there later in the year?

[Silver 3]

What does surprise me is the idea that this was a racing incident.I am 100% with Cam on his views on Steve Owen here. Owen was 80% of the way across the track and still going in the attempt to block McConville . McConville was overtaking him and would have- except Owen braked as he moved across.
Really stupid piece of driving as well as plain dangerous.

[Rachel Richards]

I was astounded to read of a reference to Gregg Handsford's fatal crash in the McConky press blurb.

No similarity whatsoever, Gregg turned right just after T 1, striking the (still present) earth filled tyre barrier, and bouncing back onto the track, to be hit by the unfortunate Mark Adderton in the Peugeot.

Same track diferent circumstances, and even to mention it clouds the issue of the T 1 sand trap & runoff not working as it should have !

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

What does surprise me is the idea that this was a racing incident.I am 100% with Cam on his views on Steve Owen here. Owen was 80% of the way across the track and still going in the attempt to block McConville . McConville was overtaking him and would have- except Owen braked as he moved across.
Really stupid piece of driving as well as plain dangerous.

not sure what vision you are watching but Owen's right front gets no closer to the right hand white line in the replays on Ch7 over the weekend...

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

not sure what vision you are watching but Owen's right front gets no closer to the right hand white line in the replays on Ch7 over the weekend...

Yeah-he drove down the straight on that side of the road?? You are joking-- he is about 3 car widths to the right of a defensive line.
Rationalising the indefensible is utterly beyond comprehension .

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Yeah-he drove down the straight on that side of the road?? You are joking-- he is about 3 car widths to the right of a defensive line.
Rationalising the indefensible is utterly beyond comprehension .

Having watched it about 50 times, (and retro's screen caps back it up) the gap between cams car and the white line gets BIGGER, meaning HE was turning away from the grass (towards owen), the track didn't narrow for ages after that. Owen was heading back to the other side of the track, so the contact is all on cam.


Also, the track doesn't look 8 car widths wide, even mirror to mirror. Loves exaggerations.