Montreal Busch race

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Purist

Deeks, the "bump and run" is VERY commonplace in Nextel Cup. Anyway, Robby was clearly ahead by the apex of the corner. The camera angle didn't show a marshal's post clearly, so I cannot be sure if a FULL COURSE caution was waving when Gordon committed to the corner and passed Ambrose. At worst, Gordon should have lined up second for the restart. Gordon's contact might have shaken Ambrose up, but the damage was little more than cosmetic at worst. The spin Ambrose put on Gordon was clearly under yellow and was utterly un-called-for. Anyway, Ambrose should be used to some banging from driving in AV8SCs. If penalties were to be assessed, Gordon, Ambrose, and Harvick should have gotten stop-and-goes.

As to the restart pile-up, there was NOT an open lane inside Pruett. The was a bit of tarmac, and the curbing. To get truly inside of Pruett, Harvick would have had to have put his right sides in the grass to attempt it.

I don't approve of what Gordon did to Ambrose after the restart, but if we're not handing out penalties left and right for this race, Robby should have won. Also, you need to realize that Robby, at least in Cup, runs his own operation with just his car, and the stress/pressure to perform week-in-week-out is probably higher for him than a lot of the other NASCAR drivers and one-off road-racing specialists. If NASCAR had just put Gordon back in 2nd, like they originally told him, I doubt any of this fiasco would have happened as it did.

As I said, I don't like most of what occurred there at the end, but I'm not going to crucify anyone or throw them to the wolves because of bias. I usually root for Harvick to some extent, but he did NOT deserve this win!

Gordon knows no other way to pass ... did you notice that all the road racers passed CLEANLY all day? Gordon did the same thing to several cars before to even get where he was.

Gordon is a dinosaur, a relic of days gone. Not only that he dishes it out and cannot take it in return.

They should fine him $1M, suspend him for a year, watch his sponsors vanish and just let him disappear from the sport.

[luke]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hC0XBfly_qc

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yQiH_ZZBC7M

What a farce! The stands looked packed as I know the Canadians love NASCAR. It was nice to see old faces in the field from CART etc but that was a very road race international field wasn't it? If that was in the US i doubt there would;nt be any more interest for a busch race on its own.

As for what Gordon did, he's an animal. And Harvick's move was way too optimistic. Robby passed Ambrose under caution, they then wrecked then moved back up to the front and bumped him again after passing him still under caution. Then Gordon just hits him out the way on the restart at turn 1. Total farce.

[Rick]

the fact they even have a name for such brilliant driving - "bump and run" - really sums it up. Any halfwit can get passed doing that - but I guess Nascar know that's what the crowd want to see (well, most of them).

[muggle not]

Nascar is at fault. Robby IMO was the race winner. Robby was clearly in the lead and was spun "after" the full course caution came out.

What Robby did was inexcusable, but it was caused by the stupid call by Nascar.

[Purist]

And if Carpentier really wanted to win, he would have done the same. If the guy in front is just going to close the door and block, a clean pass simply won't be possible. I'm not excusing anything, but it seems like Gordon is being singled out here. He did nothing more than what Harvick or Ambrose did (the tag from Gordon under caution, after he repassed the pack, wasn't even enough to cause noticeable damage to either car). So, if you're going to penalize Gordon, you HAD TO penalize Harvick and Ambrose too (to evenly apply the rules). Otherwise, if you let it go for one, you MUST let it go for all.

Deeks, Gordon has obviously gone through hundreds of races in his career without blatantly using the "bump and run". As I said though, if the guy in front is just going to block and close the door to stay ahead, if you don't try something, you'll be stuck back there in perpetuity, which isn't going to be an acceptable option for your crew chief, manager, etc.

The biggest problem is that NASCAR has provided an environment where drivers can reasonably deem it necessary to pull such defensive and offensive moves to hold or gain position. And in the end, if you want a cure, you have to cut out that cancer from the sport.

[kingfloopy]

Gordon has been suspended at Pocono with more penalties to come Tuesday:
http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/s...d=2&id=2962002

J.D.

[Matt]

Robby Gordon is an idiot. End of.

[Fish_Flake]

There's no excuse for what Robby Gordon did, but it's NASCAR's fault for allowing that farce to happen in the first place. It was a green-white-checkered finish; they could have gone around as many times as they had liked to get Robby off the track once it became clear what he intended to do. It was a shameful display all around, and I would speculate that NASCAR masterminded the whole ordeal to steal front page headlines on all of Canada's Sunday newspapers.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

There's no excuse for what Robby Gordon did, but it's NASCAR's fault for allowing that farce to happen in the first place. It was a green-white-checkered finish; they could have gone around as many times as they had liked to get Robby off the track once it became clear what he intended to do. It was a shameful display all around, and I would speculate that NASCAR masterminded the whole ordeal to steal front page headlines on all of Canada's Sunday newspapers.

Unquestionably correct 100%

And, Purist, you are wrong. Gordon passed Ambrose under Yellow so he should not have been in the lead in the first place. And, because he's such an unintelligent redneck jerk, he does'nt realise that if he had just waited to be scored, he would have been placed back in 2nd. But, no, he has to storm past all the cars to make his point (like he always does) and wrecks his own race and the guy who was the fastest man all day. He would not have gotten past Ambrose without dirty tactics - he could'nt keep up all day.

I hope the jerk pays plenty for his caveman attitude.

[Purist]

I never said he passed under green. I said the camera angle didn't show conclusively whether or not he did.

I've wathced plenty of NASCAR races and I'm only aware of two occasions where Robby spun somebody, intentioanlly or otherwise, to make a position (this race, and his first Cup win back at New Hampshire). As for the "bump and run", it's par for the course in NASCAR. You do it to others, and others do it do you. It's just what has been allowed to happen for many years.

If NASCAR was really concerned about Robby's tap on Ambrose under caution after he whipped past the field, they would have sent him to the very back, like they did for Stewart and Kenseth at Daytona. And it was stupid for NASCAR to tell Gordon to go back to 13th; what did they think was going to happen telling him that after what happened before the caution. I'm not convinced they ever intended to put him back in 2nd regardless of if he had been aggressive under yellow or not. I think he'd gotten his frustration out for the spin anyway after he nicked Ambrose, so I suspect there might not have been a spin after the final re-start if they had left him be.

As for the spin after the final restart, it didn't look like anything more than Robby getting a better run through the middle of the corner and coming up and just tapping Ambrose square on in the tail. If Gordon had really intended to do something nasty, he would have pulled to the inside and speared Ambrose' car that way.

Finally, I'm still waiting for an explanation of what you do if the guy in front insists on blocking or blatantly closing the door (in general terms here). As I said, your team maager isn't going to be satisfied with you just sitting behind that guy forever.

[browney]

Originally Posted by Purist

As for the spin after the final restart, it didn't look like anything more than Robby getting a better run through the middle of the corner and coming up and just tapping Ambrose square on in the tail. If Gordon had really intended to do something nasty, he would have pulled to the inside and speared Ambrose' car that way.

Seriously? I thought it looked like a blatant attempt to push someone off the track, after not obeying race control's instructions and some interesting behavour behind the safety car.

[Purist]

I'm just saying what it looked like from the camera angle. Robby appeared to be squarely behind Ambrose, and was NOT closing at a rate that would suggest a blatant punt or dive-bomb move.

And NO, I am not a particular Robby Gordon fan! Just to set the record straight.

I think Robby should have taken it easy once he got going again, but he didn't ruin Ambrose' race with what he did at that point, and didn't have a horribly close calls while going past the field. I never said Gordon should have been put in the lead, but he should have be scored in second for the restart. Had they set things right with scoring, I think the finish would have been much cleaner.

I would like to discuss blocking and overly aggressive defensive moves, as this is what has led to the vast majority of the punting and spinning in order to get past someone.

P.S. Trust me, you don't want my father posting and giving you an earful on this. He doesn't like contact, but once a spin has been done, he's not shy about saying tit-for-tat is fine if they're going to allow the opening salvo to pass. He's not a Robby Gordon fan especially either, but he's certain Robby got screwed on this deal, and has told me thus several times already.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm just saying what it looked like from the camera angle. Robby appeared to be squarely behind Ambrose, and was NOT closing at a rate that would suggest a blatant punt or dive-bomb move.

And NO, I am not a particular Robby Gordon fan! Just to set the record straight.

I think Robby should have taken it easy once he got going again, but he didn't ruin Ambrose' race with what he did at that point, and didn't have a horribly close calls while going past the field. I never said Gordon should have been put in the lead, but he should have be scored in second for the restart. Had they set things right with scoring, I think the finish would have been much cleaner.

I would like to discuss blocking and overly aggressive defensive moves, as this is what has led to the vast majority of the punting and spinning in order to get past someone.

P.S. Trust me, you don't want my father posting and giving you an earful on this. He doesn't like contact, but once a spin has been done, he's not shy about saying tit-for-tat is fine if they're going to allow the opening salvo to pass. He's not a Robby Gordon fan especially either, but he's certain Robby got screwed on this deal, and has told me thus several times already.

Firstly, Gordon was told to move to 13th BECAUSE he did not hold station behind the pace car until scored (i.e. because he was an impatient jerk like always) - that is the RULE - please check the book and get your dad to do the same. Get it? He would have been scored 2nd if he was'nt an aggressive idiot. No doubt he would still have punted Ambrose because that is also his nature.

Secondly, check the race tape if you have it ... NOT ONCE does Ambrose ever use defensive tactics in the race - he takes road racing lines all day and was FASTER than anybody. REPEAT, the ONLY way Gordon was going to get past was to use dirty tactics, which he did and is renowned for. If you and your dad are fans of dirty tactics, good luck to you ... I find it appalling when drivers make up for a lack of skill by just bashing others off the road. It is the easiest thing to do - tapping the rear quarter right at the apex of a turn - and the car in front will spin every time. It is PATHETIC and UNSPORTING driving and should be punished every time. In fact, repeat offenders (like Gordon) should have the penalty doubled every time they do it and, maybe eventually, they will learn a lesson.

Thirdly, I have an open mind about "defensive" tactics. If you do it early in a race repeatedly (i.e. running down the inside, changing lines etc) then you probably deserve to be punted. However, late in a race, you should be able to defend your position reasonably without the expectation that you will be punted off the road.
What you may have noticed in these NASCAR road races is that the specialist road coursers use different racing lines to the oval men and this causes problems. The road racers can take a wide line into corners and cut the apex but the oval trackers will simply charge down the inside - this leads to contact many times. However, if they take the inside line, you will say they are blocking and deserve to get punted so they cannot win, can they? It's happened to Boris and Pruett many times.

[Purist]

My father and I do NOT approve of the bad driving. However, a couple of things. If Gordon stayed back there, wouldn't he be scored in umpteenth position then? Second, the field is frozen at the caution, and that's why my dad won't take any excuses from me, and thinks RG should sue for Nascar breaching its own rules (he's an old, hard-as-they-come nosed aerospace engineer).

A little background. My dad raced sailboats in the 1970s and 80s, and penalties were VERY stringent. If you made any contact, there were two possibilities. The marshalls might be generous and allow you to continue, after doing a 720 degree turn. Otherwise, you were disqualified on the spot. Also, it's not often we agree this closely, after all, he roots for the #24 and #48 as his favorites. I haven't had a stand-out favorite in NASCAR since the 2001 Daytona 500, if you get my drift [and I only every saw The Intimidator spin someone out twice though, T. Labonte at Bristol and Al Unser Jr. (my favorite open wheeler for a long time) in an IROC race]. In the end though, my father and I agree largely on the grounds that it's wrong to penalize unevenly. Ambrose punted Gordon and Harvick punted Pruett and Fellows in one shot. Either you penalize RG, MA, and KH, or you penalize none of them. You can't have it both ways; you MUST be consistent. Otherwise, you're creating a farce that way, and one with serious implications about the series' credibility and true stance on rough driving. Basically, you either don't tolerate it with anyone, or you have to let the free-for-all take place.

Fine, you guys have been calling Robby and jerk and such for repeated offenses. Give me at least one blatant example from each year he's been in NASCAR, which probably still isn't as many altercations as someone like Tony Stewart or Kurt Busch has had in their tenure with the sanction.

I can understand a defensive line into a corner, but intentionally taking the far inside such that there is simply no lane there, and thus no opportunity to pass (unless you're going to punt) is too much in my book. And yes, I understand road-racing lines; I watch CART, IRL, ALMS, Grand-Am, F1, A1GP, and sometimes WSBK and MotoGP.

[Hazza]

Okay okay settle down boys!

But because i'm in that kind of a mood:
1995: Got hit by Michael Andretti at Cleveland. Had a whinge, had a cry, then smacked into Michael's car after the race. Suspended.
2001: Spun out Jeff Gordon for the win @ NH.
2004: Got in an accident with Biffle. Then hunted down Biffle took him out which then took out Big Smoke and Mayfield.
2005: Lost his temper at MW, and chucked his helmet, called him on live tv a "piece of ****"
2006: "Aggressive move" on Kurt Busch in the Busch race @ The Glen. Cut the corner and tried to punt Kurt off the road. I mean it was cool and all but still.

Sorry I'm missing two years, but if you don't consider Robby a dirty driver...

And i'll admitt I normally find him amusing when it's no-one I care about, but I get mighty riled when it is.

[Purist]

I think the real question is whether that record is all that outstanding, relatively speaking. Sheesh, drivers have had fisticuffs and altercations for decades, even guys like Andretti, Merzario, Allison, and Foyt. Personally, I'm pretty sure Paul Tracy has a far more colorful career than just about anyone in NASCAR or anywhere else for that matter, and he's been doing it in open-wheelers (potentially much more dangerous).

[James63]

Originally Posted by Purist

Sheesh, drivers have had fisticuffs and altercations for decades, even guys like Andretti, Merzario, Allison, and Foyt.

That doesn't make it right..

[Purist]

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that the only way you can legitimately single out Robby is if his is an outstanding case, and that has NOT been proven here as of yet.

[dj4monie]

I agree that Harvick, Ambrose and Gordon maybe should have gotten a "Stop And Go" but to be fair, Ambrose was LEADING and got drop kicked UNDER Yellow so that would put Gordon in the wrong here and he didn't move back as he was told.

Which parked his butt today and more than likely only today.

But Harvick gets to keep his victory because he's a homeboy and that's just wrong.

Which is why I have always been in favor of not having "Bush" wackers, but Jr already said they are not looking to change that. If they aren't looking to change it then ENFORCE the rules like you do in the big show. I can tell you none of this would have happen at the Glen on a Sunday if it ended up like this....

[Hazza]

I have nothing against say, Dale Jr getting up under someone and nudging him wide.

Dale Jr can win a race on speed, but occasionally he'll 'give 'em some love'.

However, Someone like Robby Gordon deliberately takes guys out just for the hell of it, now in my books thats not really cricket.

[St00ge]

Poor effort by Gordon, and glad to see Ambrose not giving a inch as he will end up everyones b!tch if he just caves in to someone if they give him a tap... Gordon had no chance to take him cleanly and shold be banned for longer for not doing as told by the race director. There is no excuse to act like a spoilt little brat and ruin the race for everyone else.

Does anyone know if Ambrose is still running in the nextel cup at Watkins Glen??

[deeks6]

No he's not ... next year maybe ... would be good to see him up against the Gordon with talent.

[luke]

Robby could have been such a great driver in CART in it's prime. Then he started driving like an idiot.

[Purist]

The problem was CART and IRL happened about that time.

I've seen Robby put in some good drives at Sears Point and the Glen. And hey, if you're going to put that paved run-off in at Turn 1, do you seriously expect no one to go in there harder and use it. Hey, drivers in F1 do the same thing.

And I still think there's a fair bit of exaggeration on Robby's driving; if not, he be getting penalized a lot more and gettting MUCH MORE airtime than he does.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Purist

Second, the field is frozen at the caution, and that's why my dad won't take any excuses from me, and thinks RG should sue for Nascar breaching its own rules (he's an old, hard-as-they-come nosed aerospace engineer).

The statement about freezing the field at caution is only partially correct, the field is not frozen but rather REVERTS back to the last timing loop crossed before the caution was displayed. As those of you who watch CLOSELY would see the last loop was BEFORE Gordon made his initial pass; you can see the scoring loops by watching the coverage and seeing where the cars are when the positions change in the scoring across the screen, supposedly direct connection to NASCAR t&s computers. So it was Gordon's pass on Ambrose, NOT his being spun out by Ambrose, that was the cause for his removal from 2nd position, why 13th I have no idea but thats the marshall's decision. So the claim of suing NASCAR for not enforcing its own rules is flat bull and a sign that understanding of the rules is completely lacking.