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Old 29 Jul 2019, 18:29 (Ref:3920284)   #7101
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What a shock horror that would be as it goes along nicely with general dumbification. Then literally the only place left for tire war would be Super GT.
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 13:29 (Ref:3920405)   #7102
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The truth is a lot of tyre companies would prefer competition to show why they are the best which is good for marketing
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 17:07 (Ref:3920422)   #7103
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The truth is a lot of tyre companies would prefer competition to show why they are the best which is good for marketing
I'm not sure if that's true any longer, exclusivity marketing deals se to be where it's at now.

Tbh it's been bit of a surprise LMP2's been allowed to stay open tire this long with rest of it being entirely spec, but I guess Hypercar ruining everyones lives is part of the new world order
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Old 30 Jul 2019, 18:17 (Ref:3920434)   #7104
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Spec tire push legitimately tends to come from the series side, because a tire war is a disruptive element to their micromanaging and official supplier contracts are profit centers. Up until recently Michelin didn't want back into F1 unless it was with competition. Being a tire supplier at the pro level doesn't benefit from scale the way a car builder does, it's expensive and difficult to transport and manage the hundreds to thousands of tires to supply a full field.

Some manufacturers that will consistently get their crap pushed in with a tire war like Goodyear and Pirelli like them, but that's about it.
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Old 31 Jul 2019, 08:03 (Ref:3920502)   #7105
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We're off topic as usual but since we're here...

One of the worst aspects of spec tyres generally, IMO, is they tend to encourage the use of compulsory pit stops, which are obviously nonsense and a waste of resources. The only way spec tyres get talked about is if teams have to come in and change them. And then you get compulsory pit stop windows, which are also ridiculous from a pure racing point of view.

This is less of an issue in endurance racing, of course, because the races are long enough for tyre changes to actually be required to go the distance.

A bugbear of mine...
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Old 31 Jul 2019, 08:17 (Ref:3920506)   #7106
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We're off topic as usual but since we're here...

One of the worst aspects of spec tyres generally, IMO, is they tend to encourage the use of compulsory pit stops, which are obviously nonsense and a waste of resources. The only way spec tyres get talked about is if teams have to come in and change them. And then you get compulsory pit stop windows, which are also ridiculous from a pure racing point of view.

This is less of an issue in endurance racing, of course, because the races are long enough for tyre changes to actually be required to go the distance.

A bugbear of mine...
Less of an issue in endurance racing, very true, but you are very much on point regarding another challenge with spec tyres.

By looking at F1, having a spec tire can hurt specific manufactures quite a lot if the tire does not match the chassis properly.
With a tire war, the tire company is more inclined to work with the manufacture to solve the issue, where with a spec tire, the tire company is more inclined to do nothing as other manufactures are working fine and the resources spent into solving the specific issue is "wasted".
Ultimately this could result in a single manufacture who experience issues, to lose a lot of pace, deeming the product (chassis) poorer to the competitors and in the end "kill" the manufactures interest in LMP, as there are no buyers.
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Old 31 Jul 2019, 15:06 (Ref:3920551)   #7107
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That's always the problem I have with tyre wars too, they hardly need to improve their tyre if they've got nothing to compete against and so it's a case of 'this is what you got, like it or lump it' instead of trying to bring the best out of the constructors you are supplying
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Old 31 Jul 2019, 20:17 (Ref:3920591)   #7108
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If it is a single tire supplier, that's a lot different than a 'spec' tire. If were talking about Michelin, they've shown that they're not too bad with prototypes I'd like to see 2 or more tire makes available too, though. I hope this is just something that the rule makers are using as a means to get people in the door in terms of saving money though and not something they intend to keep for year on year.

Something about 'hypercar' from Toyota https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...eupen/4504264/, they say they intend to use a bespoke lmp (we already knew that) but there's also the mention of costs associated with it which is new information.

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"We’re not a great reference, but the new rules are significantly cheaper. We’re talking about [savings of] over 50 percent. We used to build a new monocoque every year. If that’s 10 million euros every year, then now you can write that off over a period of five years.
Bolded part is my emphasis.
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Old 6 Aug 2019, 13:26 (Ref:3921686)   #7109
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'Success handicap' could be used in other classes. One way to increase variety in LMP2, I suppose.

And the intention is to let the handicap system play out in LMP1 without changing the EoT. I hope they can at least do that. So much fiddling...

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...other-classes/
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Old 6 Aug 2019, 14:51 (Ref:3921698)   #7110
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“But in general motorsport has to evolve in that direction."
I hate you Vincent

“We understand that so I think in the end, the best will always win, because it’a a sport."
For how long...

“Closer racing and less costs is the right approach for the sport today.”
Well I'm done soon

Formula 1 will be the last resort for non-entertainment-"racing", oh dear... Mind you, the last couple of GPs have been quite good without any artificial BS (other than stupid DRS and cheese spec tires, but that's pennies in contrast to what there could be)

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Old 6 Aug 2019, 15:41 (Ref:3921699)   #7111
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"Look at this extremely popular series that has tens of millions of fans"
Hm, doesn't seem like the most convincing argument. It's weird how someone can actually say that out loud and not realize something is wrong.

That said while it's not the absolute purest thing, success ballast doesn't compromise the sport in the way BoP does. It's part of the rules and part of the game, and not something that can be manipulated outside the competition itself. It's more fair than semi-random but subjective elements like safety cars.
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Old 6 Aug 2019, 15:49 (Ref:3921702)   #7112
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While there are many fans that might be / are bored of Mercedes domination, there are equally as many fans that fight to the death for purity of constructing the best car possible. And in theory, in theory, when new Formula 1 season starts and new cars are launched every constructor can theoretically win a race through their own doing, because it's fully up to them. No BoP committee, results based penalty system or situation where you have 3 year old crap chassis that's under tech-freeze and is therefore doomed is there to stop you. If you want to be a racing engineer, in 12 months time it is literally the last haven if you want to make a difference in technology. In many ways F1 should be applauded for staying true when everyone else has given up.

And yes success ballast is infinitely preferable to BoP as I have always said, but you're never going to get GT class (or seemingly even prototype class after the upcoming death of LMP1) again that only would use success ballast on top of actual regulations... instead they want success ballast AND BoP working together. And that is the most ridiculous scenario of all because then you end up having not only performance balancing between different models but also between individual cars.

Add to that potentially full spec classes like LMP2 and LMP3 potentially getting ballast, imagine something like IndyCar doing that lol

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Old 6 Aug 2019, 19:06 (Ref:3921722)   #7113
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If you want to be a racing engineer, in 12 months time it is literally the last haven if you want to make a difference in technology. In many ways F1 should be applauded for staying true when everyone else has given up.
In fairness, WRC and WRX probably fit into that category too.

The only positives that can come out of this Death Mission to BoPville are stability for the series and variety of entries. Those are not insignificant goals, and no doubt the ACO has looked enviously at Stefane Ratel's massive grin for the last 10 years and thought, yeah, we want some of that.

Personalily, I would rather have genuine, or more genuine, competition than we are going to get, but that ship has sailed. If we get a normally aspirated Aston Martin V12 racing against a hybrid Toyota prototype and a Detroit V8-powered SCG, well, that's not all bad.
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Old 6 Aug 2019, 21:27 (Ref:3921737)   #7114
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In fairness, WRC and WRX probably fit into that category too.

The only positives that can come out of this Death Mission to BoPville are stability for the series and variety of entries. Those are not insignificant goals, and no doubt the ACO has looked enviously at Stefane Ratel's massive grin for the last 10 years and thought, yeah, we want some of that.

Personalily, I would rather have genuine, or more genuine, competition than we are going to get, but that ship has sailed. If we get a normally aspirated Aston Martin V12 racing against a hybrid Toyota prototype and a Detroit V8-powered SCG, well, that's not all bad.
Hmm yes but I guess I limited it to circuit racing.

The thing to really worry about is not necessarily the short term future, regardless of what one thinks about it, but whether this makes a precedent and fundamentally kills of genuine constructors competition in sportscar racing for the rest of our natural life time. Given that it only took a little over half a decade for BoP virus to spread from FIA GT3 in 2005 to every single GT category in the world, and that's now seen as the "mandatory" norm everywhere that's seemingly never again getting reversed, can we trust on prototype racing not following the same route as well now that the doors have been unleashed? It happened the same way for the spread of pro-am racing concept as well, from the late 2000's to early 2010's, now you have it everywhere whereas yesteryear it was only a concept of club and spec series.

And now, with our friend Vincent shouting about "close racing and low costs" being absolute necessity, does anyone believe think that the technology factor of the Zero Emission class coming up will bring back the freedom of LMP1...? I can't for the life of me think how you get a bunch of hydrogen or electric cars doing NASCAR boogity boogity banging on low costs without it either being another BoP class, or quasi spec like Formula E... you know where they can boast about being ahead of everyone else in technology, but in reality it's just magicians dirty tricks

As for Formula 1, I have not gone too deeply in to the next big overhaul of regulations, you know the 2021 ones, but it looks like genuine non-bop, non-spec technology racing shall continue in direct sense of speech. Alone in the world perhaps, and with the array of problems F1 has in many other areas, but even 1 genuine attempt is better than 0.

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Old 7 Aug 2019, 06:58 (Ref:3921775)   #7115
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While there are many fans that might be / are bored of Mercedes domination, there are equally as many fans that fight to the death for purity of constructing the best car possible. And in theory, in theory, when new Formula 1 season starts and new cars are launched every constructor can theoretically win a race through their own doing, because it's fully up to them. No BoP committee, results based penalty system or situation where you have 3 year old crap chassis that's under tech-freeze and is therefore doomed is there to stop you. If you want to be a racing engineer, in 12 months time it is literally the last haven if you want to make a difference in technology. In many ways F1 should be applauded for staying true when everyone else has given up.

And yes success ballast is infinitely preferable to BoP as I have always said, but you're never going to get GT class (or seemingly even prototype class after the upcoming death of LMP1) again that only would use success ballast on top of actual regulations... instead they want success ballast AND BoP working together. And that is the most ridiculous scenario of all because then you end up having not only performance balancing between different models but also between individual cars.

Add to that potentially full spec classes like LMP2 and LMP3 potentially getting ballast, imagine something like IndyCar doing that lol
Not to start an off topic debate on F1 Rules and regulations, please remember that F1 is massively screwed with how Television rights money is distributed.
With that being said, the rules that F1 do have also off sets this by allowing "part shopping" from established teams. (See Haas)

When it comes down to it, I sadly believe that it is the economy which decides everything.
F1 have been very successfully in building what could be called a Motorsport monopoly on fans.
Having the majority of the fans, ensures that F1 will get a high income in sponsorships and Television rights, which it can use to support the teams to commit to long terms - in the end becoming the defining activity for the team/company (Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Sauber).
As we fans can only follow a certain amount of things with a high enough dedication to become a fan, sadly most casual fans ends up with only following F1, together with which else sport they might follow (MotoGP, WRC, WRX, WEC, Cricket, Hockey, Cycling and not to forget... Football/Soccer).

In other words, with F1 (or in generally mass dominating sports) any other series will in the current climate always fight for the left overs. It is in this fight we see that ACO is struggling to find their place and how they can secure the basis of a World Endurance Championship, which is "self sustaining" in having teams participating in all classes.
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Old 7 Aug 2019, 08:16 (Ref:3921786)   #7116
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The thing to really worry about is not necessarily the short term future, regardless of what one thinks about it, but whether this makes a precedent and fundamentally kills of genuine constructors competition in sportscar racing for the rest of our natural life time.
Yes, this is a real concern. On the other hand, it doesn't kill off actual constructors, in the way the LMP2/3 rules could due to being limited to four in each class.
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Old 7 Aug 2019, 18:53 (Ref:3921846)   #7117
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Brilliant bit the guy from Racingsportscars.com (amazing site) wrote in the SC365 comments:

Quite incompetent idea - Mr. Beaumesnil should leave his spot to more clever men... Group C and former sport car racing was the best. Not this artificial cinema for TV-crowds. I hate the fact that Spa is now the last race of the season (but LM where they hopefully will not implement this unfair stupidity). I would like to see there real performance of the cars. Not something that Mr. Beaumesnil created in his head and we will have to follow it... Imagine some car would retire for accident or mechanical reasons in earlier races. Then in Spa with least ballast it can have a quite advantage over the others - and as a follower of such race, I am not really interested in the STUPID ballast, which just show lack of real equal ideas by the rule makers

-- Group C does not race at the professional level anymore. I will keep watching sports car racing till I am alive, no worries. My archives will continue regardless how stupid people will try to destroy it. I am interested in the history, in chassis numbers, in the cars - but there is no point of taking much care of the results based on manipulation :-( - just as I stopped carrying much about GT3 results some years ago - but GT3s are great to follow from the individual racing history point of view - there are simply plenty of them in the world and they can race anywhere. I just do not care which car is first or last as there is no point in such following - it is based on artificial settings not related in any way to the real performance of the cars - the original reason car racing was created. I understand there would be a lot of random-around-goers watching artificial based racing without any deep knowledge in behind, but that simply can hardly work for real sports car fans.


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Not to start an off topic debate on F1 Rules and regulations, please remember that F1 is massively screwed with how Television rights money is distributed.
With that being said, the rules that F1 do have also off sets this by allowing "part shopping" from established teams. (See Haas)

When it comes down to it, I sadly believe that it is the economy which decides everything.
F1 have been very successfully in building what could be called a Motorsport monopoly on fans.
Having the majority of the fans, ensures that F1 will get a high income in sponsorships and Television rights, which it can use to support the teams to commit to long terms - in the end becoming the defining activity for the team/company (Ferrari, McLaren, Williams, Sauber).
As we fans can only follow a certain amount of things with a high enough dedication to become a fan, sadly most casual fans ends up with only following F1, together with which else sport they might follow (MotoGP, WRC, WRX, WEC, Cricket, Hockey, Cycling and not to forget... Football/Soccer).

In other words, with F1 (or in generally mass dominating sports) any other series will in the current climate always fight for the left overs. It is in this fight we see that ACO is struggling to find their place and how they can secure the basis of a World Endurance Championship, which is "self sustaining" in having teams participating in all classes.
Yes I as I gestured there are many problems within F1, but for the most part are still things that do not harm the 'purity' of the sport the same way as things mr Beaumesnil for example would like to see implemented everywhere. Distribution of money has issues like Ferrar legacy costs and whatever but in principal it is based on achieved results, which they had to work for... and parts trading is actually welcomed in my book, as it relates to customers cars I am not opposed to.

As for fans only following F1 and nothing else... well, frankly if the future of sportscar racing, as well all other non-club motorsport, is being either spec or BoP (or worse still mixture of both), then I don't think those others necessarily deserve to be watched. If Beaumesnil thinks sport X fails because it's not "exciting enough", well... I don't think he understands the system very well at all.

Besides. Even if say LMP1 and LMP2 had provided the most boringest competition on earth - which they haven't but let's say they have - and such would be the sole reason for the "fall" of WEC or whatever... well they still have the lottery competition going on at GTE, which these days gets more TV coverage than ever before. Why does every category need to be a wrestling match if half of the grid is already doing such? I don't understand

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Yes, this is a real concern. On the other hand, it doesn't kill off actual constructors, in the way the LMP2/3 rules could due to being limited to four in each class.
I get what you are saying I classify constructor racing as constructors building the best possible cars and racing them... BoP racing doesn't have constructors in my book, it's more like branding stickers in an advertising shootout. They technically constructed the chassis yes (unless there is fake sticker rebranding going on) but how they do that is largely irrelevant

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Old 7 Aug 2019, 20:43 (Ref:3921864)   #7118
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ballast is a tiny thing compared to the weight of the car. If there's a car that loses a race because it has a lot of weight, that means it's been doing very good before that race to have had all that ballast. And in Super GT there is max ballast so it doesn't just keep going up and up. This is probably the way the wec is going to go. I'd rather there bet a set eot and then use the ballast as the rest of the way instead of bop round by round klinda like IMSA does. Hoped this wouldn't have to be used in hypercar but not much we can do there.
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Old 8 Aug 2019, 20:34 (Ref:3921993)   #7119
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Neveu unsure on a 3rd hypercar manufacturer for season 1. So Toyota and Aston confirmed, and yet they don't consider Glick to be a manufacturer for some reason

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Old 9 Aug 2019, 06:36 (Ref:3922033)   #7120
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Old 9 Aug 2019, 16:37 (Ref:3922103)   #7121
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What about ByKolles?
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Old 9 Aug 2019, 19:25 (Ref:3922123)   #7122
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Originally Posted by NaBUru38 View Post
What about ByKolles?
They don't make road cars, so they are different in that respect.
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Old 9 Aug 2019, 19:44 (Ref:3922127)   #7123
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canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid

Last edited by canaglia; 9 Aug 2019 at 19:56.
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Old 10 Aug 2019, 00:11 (Ref:3922149)   #7124
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Old 10 Aug 2019, 14:11 (Ref:3922190)   #7125
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Wouldn't this be a better fit, given the reticence by the ACO to acknowledge SCG and their not-so-subtle disappointment with hypercar so far:

But the credit still goes to canaglia for the idea in the first place.
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