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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:37 (Ref:4128820)   #106
Mike Harte
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
assuming that was the only thing he has said on the matter then yes...still over the top imo.



hes calling one team out for massively cheating and hes calling out the rest of the paddock for not talking about it publicly which to me implies an accusation of conspiracy or coverup.

a very loaded statement imo. of course we will all have different views on how that quote should be parsed though.

All he's doing is saying what is being spoken openly by all the teams in the paddock, i.e, his opposite numbers in the other teams. And, if all that he said as is quoted above, he hasn't mentioned any potential team names.

The naming appears to be be journalists/reporters who are possibly just speculating!
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4128821)   #107
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
That seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from Toto tbh.
Given that he is also an owner of AM I wonder if his fellow shareholders find it reasonable?

Seriously though, for my part I did not like it last year when Horner was calling Lewis out for trying to kill Max and I dislike Toto’s accusations of cheating before the process has even been completed. I would like to see more civility and less inflammatory comments from the team principles at least.

Imo both need a serious time out!
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:40 (Ref:4128823)   #108
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
That seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from Toto tbh.
And yet I wonder what the reaction would be if those words had come out of Christian Horner's mouth.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:48 (Ref:4128824)   #109
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
All he's doing is saying what is being spoken openly by all the teams in the paddock, i.e, his opposite numbers in the other teams.
openly is different than publicly no?

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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
The naming appears to be be journalists/reporters who are possibly just speculating!
given thats what the media do then that in and of itself should highlight that making allegations with no names is an over the top (even irresponsible) thing to do because the media will do what they do...run wild it.

i assume he's got more than enough PR training to know this right?
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:49 (Ref:4128825)   #110
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
That seems like a perfectly reasonable statement from Toto tbh.
If that was all he said, I'd agree with you, but he also had more to say about Red Bull (seemingly after being told that Mr Horner had indicated that RB had no cap problems) - expressing surprise at what Mr Horner had to say and suggesting that Mr Horner needed to speak to his CFO more. Clearly implying that RB was one of the teams in hot water.

They're all as bad as each other on this stuff though - all happy to throw a bit of mud or alternatively play the victim.

I liked Ted's take on it in his post-race notebook from Singapore - described it all as a "Drive to Survive" storm - suggesting a storm in a teacup beat up for Netflix.

We'll all know next week where the actual facts sit - but no doubt there'll be more conjecture and maybe posturing / accusing in Japan this weekend.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 21:54 (Ref:4128826)   #111
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Drive to Survive" storm
good one Ted.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 05:07 (Ref:4128846)   #112
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The context and order of comments is important here.

Firstly, let's assume Toto had the open secret and was informed that RB had breached the cap by a minor figure.

The media mentioned RB first, in a direct question to Toto about them being over the cap. They asked Toto about Horner claiming RB were under. Toto replied that Horner should speak to his CFO.

He then went on to state that one time had a minor breach, and one team a major breach.

The press, fans and Horner then all jumped on Toto's comments as being an attack on RB.

IF RB have breached the cap by $1, then nothing Toto has said is incorrect, or deflammatory [sic].
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 06:56 (Ref:4128848)   #113
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Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
Will people get as angry with Aston Martin as they were seemingly getting with Red bull?
No because if you cheat are and still suck, people are generally less angry than when you cheat to win.

This isn't the magic "gotcha" card that you're playing it as.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 07:49 (Ref:4128850)   #114
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So RBR overspend was "within margin of error" , depends on how you count deduct offset etc. If a team is allowed to spend 140, but only spend 139 then they are leaving something on the table..

We expect drivers to drive at 10 10ths (hmm I might start a website..) we expect the pit crew engineers designers to push the limit of whats possible, so we should expect the bean counters to push it to the line. And like a driver going just a few mm over track limit and get the flag, the accountants over spent on pencils and computers.

No one will call it great management if the team prince says "we came close second, but had 10 mil to spare at years end."
If you have 10 million in the kitty, spend $9,999,999.99 on improvement somewhere, and come first.
But then an auditor says... no you cant deduct that expense, or you miscounted or similar.. so now your a shade over.

To me what is clear is that Toto must be a Soccer fan. Falls to the ground and screams if someone even finger-tip touches him, in hope for a penalty or to derail other teams work
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 08:31 (Ref:4128855)   #115
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Originally Posted by bathurst77 View Post
So RBR overspend was "within margin of error" , depends on how you count deduct offset etc. If a team is allowed to spend 140, but only spend 139 then they are leaving something on the table..

We expect drivers to drive at 10 10ths (hmm I might start a website..) we expect the pit crew engineers designers to push the limit of whats possible, so we should expect the bean counters to push it to the line. And like a driver going just a few mm over track limit and get the flag, the accountants over spent on pencils and computers.

No one will call it great management if the team prince says "we came close second, but had 10 mil to spare at years end."
If you have 10 million in the kitty, spend $9,999,999.99 on improvement somewhere, and come first.
But then an auditor says... no you cant deduct that expense, or you miscounted or similar.. so now your a shade over.

To me what is clear is that Toto must be a Soccer fan. Falls to the ground and screams if someone even finger-tip touches him, in hope for a penalty or to derail other teams work
The maths is actually pretty simple.

if ( ammountSpend > ammountAllowedToSpend ) {
log("You cheated")
} else {
log ("You didn't cheat")
}

If the best argument for not being able to maths is they were too busy trying to fiddle the books and didn't get it right, then you should get 2 penalties - 1 for cheating, and 1 for being **** at it.

Numbers don't have grey areas. Unless you create grey areas for them to live in.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 08:43 (Ref:4128857)   #116
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
The maths is actually pretty simple.

if ( ammountSpend > ammountAllowedToSpend ) {
log("You cheated")
} else {
log ("You didn't cheat")
}

If the best argument for not being able to maths is they were too busy trying to fiddle the books and didn't get it right, then you should get 2 penalties - 1 for cheating, and 1 for being **** at it.

Numbers don't have grey areas. Unless you create grey areas for them to live in.
Except, in the real world, it's not in any way so simple. You could work the same figures and get 10 different results quite easily.

For just one, quite simple, example, the FIA prescribe a value to a free or subsidised engine deal - but are all such works deals identical, in terms of spares, service or extras. One team could be showing much lower figures than another for essentially the same thing.

Also, for constructors supplying engines or controlled parts to other teams, how are the turnover and profit from those deals judged when considering the originators budget.

What happens when you, who by law has to operate in GBP for example, contracts to buy supplies in EUR and the exchange rate fluctuates? Or customs duties change?

There are endless examples like this.

The cap was brought in to drive down budgets. It has done this. Everybody involved knew all along there were going to be massive arguments. It's no surprise.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 08:47 (Ref:4128858)   #117
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Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Except, in the real world, it's not in any way so simple. You could work the same figures and get 10 different results quite easily.
Actually it is. Unless you deliberately make it complex then it's actually that simple. I work with budgets and spending daily. It only becomes difficult to track and trace if you want it to be.

Numbers are absolutes. It's people fiddling them about that makes it difficult. By saying "it's more complicated than that" all we're doing is making excuses for teams not doing things correctly.

This is literally where the term creative accountancy comes from. And saying "this is what we expected, it's no surprise" is such an F1 excuse. "We expected the bad thing to happen so its alright".
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 08:49 (Ref:4128859)   #118
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Actually it is.
Broadly, perhaps.

Accurately, no way. Simplistic to think otherwise.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 10:17 (Ref:4128868)   #119
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I do not know much about accounting practices however I do hope this is not becoming the norm where teams try to justify expenses through different accounting techniques and processes every year.

Maybe this being the first year is difficult but maybe from this they can standardise processes so everybody works to the same understanding

But let's wait and see until Monday. On MWM they said on Monday they will give out the certificates to the teams that have met the cap. So any team that has not will go to evaluation or court or whatever - so this might drag out for a few more months. Maybe we will have 2023 WDC sorted by the time this is through haha
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 11:50 (Ref:4128880)   #120
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It wouldn’t surprise me if Red Bull have found an interpretation of a cost clause which they have successfully argued is legit (like “any” not meaning “all”) but which other teams avoided because they believed the interpretation would be different. That would make Wolff furious. I think he is a very good chief exec but I don’t think he is very imaginative.
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