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Old 4 Oct 2022, 20:34 (Ref:4128686)   #46
Mike Harte
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Originally Posted by GCCheddaris View Post
The series is aimed at Pre 1980 Special Saloons and Modsports hence the use of the 1979 regulations. The first spaceframe Maguire Imp was built in 1979 and of course there was the lowline Escort built by Geoff Wood which featured on this forum a few years ago which I believe was also a spaceframe.

I may be horribly wrong here, but my memory is that around about 1974 is the period that the Super Saloons started, when the more exotic machinery that you quote took over from Special Saloons. Which is why I don't understand why this club are saying Special Saloons based on 1979 regulations. Special Saloons no longer, in reality, existed as such.

More to the point though, we have discussed on these pages about the surfeit of racing for specific classes of cars, and how that is diluting grids dramatically as drivers/entrants weigh up which events that they can afford to do or want to be on the grid.

There is already another club, the CSCC, that run a series of races for both classes of cars in combined races. Surely all this new series will do do is just split the grids, with neither club being beneficiaries. It would seem that many of these cars are pretty expensive and time consuming to get on track, and not all of them are able to make it to every meeting that they run on, and I think that both clubs will quickly find the numbers diminishing quickly. Assuming, of course, that these owners do actually join the HSCC series.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 00:29 (Ref:4128699)   #47
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CSCC allow much later cars, IIRC there are some from the 90's in it. The genuine older cars from the 60s and 70s cannot be competitive therefore they are few and far between. Hence AIUI HSCC biasing their rules to 60s and 70s only. Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 06:12 (Ref:4128720)   #48
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That is reassuring . I am often frustrated that despite the UK having lots of circuits and people to race on them , too many clubs are fishing in the same pond. |Co-operation, rather than competition must be the way forward .
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 07:23 (Ref:4128723)   #49
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When I started going motor racing in 1974, just about every meeting featured a Special Saloon race, with either a full grid or two races split at 1000cc containing literally dozens of Minis and Imps.



I would love to see these little cars emerging from hibernation to form the core of the new series but I wonder how many still exist. Autograss was becoming very popular in the seventies and I suspect many of them ended up being used on the grass tracks or being broken to supply the basis of Autograss cars. An old Formula Ford I owned ended it's days in that way.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 13:13 (Ref:4128754)   #50
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Originally Posted by GCCheddaris View Post
The series is aimed at Pre 1980 Special Saloons and Modsports hence the use of the 1979 regulations. The first spaceframe Maguire Imp was built in 1979 and of course there was the lowline Escort built by Geoff Wood which featured on this forum a few years ago which I believe was also a spaceframe.

But there were many sports racing car based Skodas around since 1975 if I remember correctly. Also a few John Robinson space frame Escorts from about the same time. Also, the fantastic Super Saloon cars were emerging at that time.
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Old 5 Oct 2022, 13:18 (Ref:4128755)   #51
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Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.

The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 07:07 (Ref:4128849)   #52
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But there were many sports racing car based Skodas around since 1975 if I remember correctly. Also a few John Robinson space frame Escorts from about the same time. Also, the fantastic Super Saloon cars were emerging at that time.
There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 09:05 (Ref:4128860)   #53
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There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.

I actually raced against many that you name, which were all built to the Special Saloon regs, plus, of course, Richard Scantlebury's Janglia (later sold to and campaigned by Mick Hill) and was able to compete easily against them with tamer, plain vanilla 1650cc Anglia.

And in answer to another poster, the Special Saloon regs made them a silhouette class of car meaning that we were able to run with extended wheel arches that could adequately cover the oversize wheels that many of us ran with. Having said that, some competitors chose not to, like the Merfield Cortina which from memory just had a lip not quite extending to the outer edge of the tyres.

And then in the late 60s, cars started running with the bulbous wings that originally came with the Escorts.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 10:42 (Ref:4128870)   #54
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andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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CSCC allow much later cars, IIRC there are some from the 90's in it. The genuine older cars from the 60s and 70s cannot be competitive therefore they are few and far between. Hence AIUI HSCC biasing their rules to 60s and 70s only. Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.
The CSCC age limit is 1993, iirc, the cut off being planned to incorporate the Thundersaloons category cars, although there are separate classes for pre 93 cars with more modern engines, due to customer demand.
Early cars can be competitive within their respective classes, but not at the front, for some reason they don’t want to come out to play!!!
Plenty of people are happy to race within a multi-class structure and not be at the front - if only front runners raced, the grids would be very small.
Some members of the MG car club are worried for the future of their “Class A Midgets”.
The HSCC are definitely poaching.

Last edited by andy97; 6 Oct 2022 at 10:48.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 13:01 (Ref:4128890)   #55
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The HSCC are definitely poaching.

The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 16:17 (Ref:4128913)   #56
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The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.
Period engined cars can run with CSCC Saloons and Modsports and in the MG Spridget series.

When CSCC was established no one else was running 40 min races with a pit stop and it was its USP for a while. Now virtuallly every club runs very similar series. And, as I said, some in the MG car club are concerned about the future of their “class A” cars.
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 18:28 (Ref:4128921)   #57
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The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



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Old 6 Oct 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4128934)   #58
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The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



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I know a chap with 4 x class A cars between him and his son and he is aware of several more. They are out there, just need encouraging out!
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Old 6 Oct 2022, 21:43 (Ref:4128935)   #59
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Like I said, maybe a different/extra series would make it worth running them.

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Old 6 Oct 2022, 22:27 (Ref:4128941)   #60
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The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.
I've just re-read the draft regs for 2023 and cannot find any reference to restrictions on wheel arches. Are you perhaps conflating wheel arches with wings? I may of course have missed something and stand to be corrected...
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