Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Historic Racing Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 5 Oct 2022, 13:18 (Ref:4128755)   #51
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.

The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 07:07 (Ref:4128849)   #52
rbs
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
England
northampton
Posts: 2,095
rbs should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrbs should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
But there were many sports racing car based Skodas around since 1975 if I remember correctly. Also a few John Robinson space frame Escorts from about the same time. Also, the fantastic Super Saloon cars were emerging at that time.
There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.
rbs is offline  
__________________
If you die in debt you made a profit.
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 09:05 (Ref:4128860)   #53
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,471
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbs View Post
There were numerous super saloon cars about in the late sixties and early 70's the Merfield Cortinas, Maudlings Corsair, Bennions Minor, Sanilands Standard and Tarrants A40 to name a few. Super Saloons was just a new name for cars that had existed for several years that were getting to quick for the average Special Saloon grid. These earlier cars were quite scruffy compared to the more modern ones and you have to wonder how safe they would be now.

I actually raced against many that you name, which were all built to the Special Saloon regs, plus, of course, Richard Scantlebury's Janglia (later sold to and campaigned by Mick Hill) and was able to compete easily against them with tamer, plain vanilla 1650cc Anglia.

And in answer to another poster, the Special Saloon regs made them a silhouette class of car meaning that we were able to run with extended wheel arches that could adequately cover the oversize wheels that many of us ran with. Having said that, some competitors chose not to, like the Merfield Cortina which from memory just had a lip not quite extending to the outer edge of the tyres.

And then in the late 60s, cars started running with the bulbous wings that originally came with the Escorts.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 10:42 (Ref:4128870)   #54
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGDavid View Post
CSCC allow much later cars, IIRC there are some from the 90's in it. The genuine older cars from the 60s and 70s cannot be competitive therefore they are few and far between. Hence AIUI HSCC biasing their rules to 60s and 70s only. Not competing for the same customer base but both clubs attempting to provide somewhere to race for a lot of cars that are languishing in people's garages and workshops.
The CSCC age limit is 1993, iirc, the cut off being planned to incorporate the Thundersaloons category cars, although there are separate classes for pre 93 cars with more modern engines, due to customer demand.
Early cars can be competitive within their respective classes, but not at the front, for some reason they don’t want to come out to play!!!
Plenty of people are happy to race within a multi-class structure and not be at the front - if only front runners raced, the grids would be very small.
Some members of the MG car club are worried for the future of their “Class A Midgets”.
The HSCC are definitely poaching.

Last edited by andy97; 6 Oct 2022 at 10:48.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 13:01 (Ref:4128890)   #55
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
The HSCC are definitely poaching.

The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 16:17 (Ref:4128913)   #56
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
The HSCC series is for period engined cars which is totally different from CSCC's series. It also has a far earlier cut off date. Cars will be more like the special saloons of the 1960 - 1974 period.


As for poaching I think CSCC has done it's share in the past. I think it was even conceived to do that.
Period engined cars can run with CSCC Saloons and Modsports and in the MG Spridget series.

When CSCC was established no one else was running 40 min races with a pit stop and it was its USP for a while. Now virtuallly every club runs very similar series. And, as I said, some in the MG car club are concerned about the future of their “class A” cars.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 18:28 (Ref:4128921)   #57
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 6,778
midgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 21:38 (Ref:4128934)   #58
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by midgetman View Post
The Midget Challenge seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis at the moment. When I raced in it, it was a starter series for cheap sports cars. Now of course that accolade goes to Mazda MX-5s and the like as the MGs are not a starter sports car. So it's a "historic" series but even the "road going" cars are developed past the normal "historic" levels.

When MiniMM raced with them in August, there was just two Class A cars on track, one of which broke. I don't think there are many left out there and can't really see why anyone would build one. Rather than poach drivers from the Midgets, maybe another series would encourage more builds as there is somewhere else to race besides the handful of Challenge rounds. Sounds like the HSCC could be a good thing.



Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

I know a chap with 4 x class A cars between him and his son and he is aware of several more. They are out there, just need encouraging out!
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 21:43 (Ref:4128935)   #59
midgetman
Veteran
 
midgetman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location:
Rural Wiltshire
Posts: 6,778
midgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famemidgetman will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Like I said, maybe a different/extra series would make it worth running them.

Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk
midgetman is offline  
__________________
Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq!
Quote
Old 6 Oct 2022, 22:27 (Ref:4128941)   #60
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
The trouble is that these old cars from the 1970s that may be still around would not be eligible for the new HSCC series as they would all have substantially modified or flared wheel arches which aren't allowed in the revised regs from HSCC.
I've just re-read the draft regs for 2023 and cannot find any reference to restrictions on wheel arches. Are you perhaps conflating wheel arches with wings? I may of course have missed something and stand to be corrected...
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 14:26 (Ref:4129016)   #61
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 14:33 (Ref:4129018)   #62
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy97 View Post
When CSCC was established no one else was running 40 min races with a pit stop and it was its USP for a while. Now virtuallly every club runs very similar series. And, as I said, some in the MG car club are concerned about the future of their “class A” cars.

I thought Julius Thurgood's Top Hat series were doing 40 minute pit stop/two driver events then.
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 14:41 (Ref:4129019)   #63
Mike Harte
Veteran
 
Mike Harte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
United Kingdom
W. Yorkshire
Posts: 5,471
Mike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameMike Harte will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.

Peter, I have always assumed that being silhouette meant looking at the car from the side, very much as was the case for Special Saloons. This then means that wheel arches can be modified to accept wider wheels/tyres.
Mike Harte is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 15:41 (Ref:4129027)   #64
andy97
Veteran
 
andy97's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
United Kingdom
Castle Donington
Posts: 4,982
andy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridandy97 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
I thought Julius Thurgood's Top Hat series were doing 40 minute pit stop/two driver events then.
In 2002/3? Fair enough, if so.
andy97 is offline  
__________________
Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 15:45 (Ref:4129028)   #65
Peter Mallett
The Honourable Mallett
20KPINAL
 
Peter Mallett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
England
Here and there
Posts: 37,234
Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!Peter Mallett is the undisputed Champion of the World!
It sounds about right. I recall Bernie Chodosh joining in at Spa around that time.
Peter Mallett is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Oct 2022, 19:07 (Ref:4129052)   #66
MGDavid
Veteran
 
MGDavid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
England
Berkshire
Posts: 3,809
MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!MGDavid is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
No, I understood the bit about wings, but I may have been mistaken when I read section 5.14.1 of the revised regs. It states that in side view the silhouete must remain unaltered above the wheel centre line. I assumed this meant wheel arches could not be modified.
Are wheel arch extensions or modifications allowed?

P.S. Well done with the Spa finish.
Thanks, that last hour and a quarter in dark & wet & lots of spray was a bit of a challenge for these old eyes

As Mike H said, a side view silhouette above wheel centres is just the outline of the whole car and I can't think of one where the arches would exceed this. Now if they'd said in plan view (aka bird's eye view) you'd be correct !
MGDavid is offline  
__________________
a salary slave no more...
Quote
Old 8 Oct 2022, 09:06 (Ref:4129158)   #67
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Peter, I have always assumed that being silhouette meant looking at the car from the side, very much as was the case for Special Saloons. This then means that wheel arches can be modified to accept wider wheels/tyres.

Yes, you and MGDavid are correct and I read it wrong. I put it down to age. And stupidity.
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Oct 2022, 15:32 (Ref:4129917)   #68
Moby
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 57
Moby should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just to help clarify a few things up.

Firstly the HSCC are not poaching, in fact of the 44 cars which lined up on the GP circuit at Brands Hatch last year for the CSCC, only one car would have been eligible for the HSCC series.

I have since had enquiries for some cars which I have turned down and sent them to the CSCC. The CSCC is a good series with some great cars, but allows modern engines, sequential gearboxes, forced induction etc.. So as someone has already commented from a different era and specification. Competitors in the older cars didn't mind not winning, but were concerned about having to watch mirrors all the time because of the speed differential. You still get a differential with the older cars, but not to anywhere near the same extent.

There are no restrictions on wheel arches.

The reason for citing the 1979 regulations are that the series is for pre-1980 cars, so the reg's up to 1979 are relevant and yes there were a set of reg's in the 1979 Technical Manual for 'Special Saloons', repeated almost word for word in the revised HSCC regulations. I have the 1973, 1976 and the 1979 so can relate differences to reg's throughout the 1970's.

Hopefully this clears up some misunderstandings. The series has more than 60 registrations of interest so far and still growing, I know that doesn't always mean cars on the grid, but it shows its a period and set of reg's that is credible.

Happy to discuss anything further.

Kind regards,

Steve Watton
Chairman Historic Modsports and Special Saloons.
Moby is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Oct 2022, 14:57 (Ref:4131326)   #69
Moby
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 57
Moby should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
HSCC Historic Modsports & Special Saloons 2023 Calendar

I thought I would update you on latest news.
I have just been sent the calendar for 2023 and what a fantastic set of meetings we have, 6 meetings, all composed of 15 minutes qualifying and 2 x 20 minute races.

We have races on the Brands Hatch and the Silverstone GP circuits as well as visits to Donington Park, Snetterton, the Croft Historic Festival and rounding off back at Silverstone for the finals meeting at the end of the season.


This shows the support the HSCC are giving the series and is testament to everyone who has competed this year or has shown interest and has pledged to come and compete with us next year. We have a great springboard here to develop the series into another of the HSCC’s Historic Racing Portfolio.


The full calendar with dates is:


Sat 22nd – Sun 23rd April Snetterton

Sat 27th – Sun 28th May Silverstone GP Circuit

Sat 24th – Sun 25th Jun Donington Park

Sat 15th – Sun 16th Jul Brands Hatch GP Circuit

Sat 2nd – Sun 3rd Aug Croft Historic Festival

Sat 14th – Sun 15th Oct Silverstone Final Meeting



Steve Watton

Chairman Historic Modsports & Special Saloons

Historic Sports Car Club
Moby is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Oct 2022, 15:38 (Ref:4131422)   #70
morninggents
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
England
Up north, near York.
Posts: 2,677
morninggents should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Has your participation at the Silverstone GP and Brands Hatch GP meetings been confirmed by HSCC?
morninggents is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Oct 2022, 18:15 (Ref:4131436)   #71
Moby
Rookie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 57
Moby should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yes, subject to the usual contract signing process between the club and Silverstone
Moby is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wendy Wools Special Saloons and Modsports Series andy97 Historic Racing Today 8 2 Dec 2017 06:39
Modsports & Special Saloons - Lotus Elan Gavinm Motorsport History 19 1 Apr 2009 21:14
HSCC Saloons / Historic Racing Saloons Register (HRSR) rogerwills Historic Racing Today 94 18 Mar 2008 10:28
Modsports/ Special Saloons Register rcarr Historic Racing Today 3 8 Dec 2005 18:54


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:16.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.