Dos and don'ts... - Page 3

Piglet · 16 Apr 2008, 18:17 (Ref:2179164)

Sorry Tim I tend to do realism...I don't find being unrealistic about how the world of motorsport photography works is helpful to those who think they can live well on the proceeds. Everyone one who can wield a compact camera thinks they'll get paid to go to race meetings and take pictures, the world is not like that at all, most of the guys make very little money despite having vast amounts of talent.

Jimie, if English is your second language you are doing well, text speak (u, fone, proppa etc) is banned on the forum though. If you use Mozilla as your browser you can download a spell checker that checks posts on forums, it's very helpful.

JurekB · 16 Apr 2008, 18:42 (Ref:2179185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmie

Can anyone give me advise on how to improve my photo? Its my dream to go to Singapore and I m very determind

Forget Singapore, if you are only 11 then you have years ahead of you so use that time to learn how to take photographs. Ditch the cameraphone and instead go to ebay (or Allegro) and buy a cheap film slr and a big pile of 35mm film and photograph anything and everything. Learn about exposure, composition and technique. Only having 36 frames and having to wait a week to see your pictures will teach you more than you can imagine. Don't be disheartened if all your pictures are rubbish, they will get better.

If you have a bit more money then buy a cheap digital compact camera, making sure it has a manual setting and use that to learn. There is more to photography then pointing the camera and pressing a button.

jimmie · 16 Apr 2008, 18:46 (Ref:2179192)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JurekB

Forget Singapore, if you are only 11 then you have years ahead of you so use that time to learn how to take photographs. Ditch the cameraphone and instead go to ebay (or Allegro) and buy a cheap film slr and a big pile of 35mm film and photograph anything and everything. Learn about exposure, composition and technique. Only having 36 frames and having to wait a week to see your pictures will teach you more than you can imagine. Don't be disheartened if all your pictures are rubbish, they will get better.

If you have a bit more money then buy a cheap digital compact camera, making sure it has a manual setting and use that to learn. There is more to photography then pointing the camera and pressing a button.

Thank you Jurek. I will learn your advice.

jimmie · 16 Apr 2008, 18:47 (Ref:2179193)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

Anyway....pay you to shoot

take a look through the old threads, there is sod all money in motorsport photography so your dream of someone paying you to go to Singapore to shoot F1 is sadly exactly that I'd imagine

What is the word 'sod'?
I looked it in my dictionary and couldnt find it. What does it mean?

minimangler · 16 Apr 2008, 22:56 (Ref:2179370)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

Sorry Tim I tend to do realism...I don't find being unrealistic about how the world of motorsport photography works is helpful to those who think they can live well on the proceeds. Everyone one who can wield a compact camera thinks they'll get paid to go to race meetings and take pictures, the world is not like that at all, most of the guys make very little money despite having vast amounts of talent.

Jimie, if English is your second language you are doing well, text speak (u, fone, proppa etc) is banned on the forum though. If you use Mozilla as your browser you can download a spell checker that checks posts on forums, it's very helpful.

No, what you do is negativity. I don't think you got where you are (I guess you're a pro) by having people tell you negative **** from every angle, and certainly not by listening to how **** the odds are. I'm sorry, but I do intend to make a living out of it, and frankly I hope that one day I'm earning more than you are and helping newbies like me to get into the game they wanna do.

Rant over.

agosling · 17 Apr 2008, 02:27 (Ref:2179434)

Mini, I agree with you, at least in part but I can also see is from Piglets side as well.

It is hard to make a living from being a photographer alone, I consider myself a pro, I am hardcarded to a number of championship as well as doing World Superbike and MotoGP events when I can, but as much as I would love not to have to at this time I still have to work a normal job as well to pay the bills. So be realistic as to the possibilities, but don't let that stop you if it is what you really want to achieve.

I can also understand Piglet's view on newbies in the pits, the bottomline is that it is a dangerous place and you need do need to be really careful when your in there. On the other hand you have to learn sometime, honestly I would sooner see that happen at smaller meetings than at a major event.

I hope that you can find someone who is will to show you around and help you out, but it is hard, I am always willing to help out but I also have a job to do and I need to know that the person I am helping is serious and not just some one race wonder who has lucked out and got media access, and until you see someone around a few times it's hard to know whether someone is worth the effort or not.

Bottom line is go and enjoy, be safe and make sure you come back with good quality work.

Happy Snapper · 17 Apr 2008, 06:00 (Ref:2179483)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimangler

No, what you do is negativity. I don't think you got where you are (I guess you're a pro) by having people tell you negative **** from every angle, and certainly not by listening to how **** the odds are. I'm sorry, but I do intend to make a living out of it, and frankly I hope that one day I'm earning more than you are and helping newbies like me to get into the game they wanna do.

Rant over.

Mini you could not be further form the truth, Piglet is not a "pro" snapper she has been working at Race meetings and in Pit Lanes for many years.

This year will be her tenth at the British GP as well as Le Mans 24, Spa 24 A1GP, WTCC and DTM, Brit GT and F3 along with numerous club events.

We have all tried to offer you good sound advice, all Piglet asked was for you to listen to some of the people who have the experience I (we) have taken several inexperience snappers with us to events and guided them to help gain experience. I was looked after by Samoan Attorney at Le Mans, Sebring and Spa and we shared many a beer or bottle of Vin Rouge.

As we have all said previously enjoy the FIA at Silverstone.

At many events our camp site is the focal point (no pun intended) for many of the experienced or up and coming snappers they all know me and know they are welcome for beer and food after a days racing for advice, guidance and rise taking.

Samoan Attorney · 17 Apr 2008, 07:23 (Ref:2179526)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimangler

No, what you do is negativity. I don't think you got where you are (I guess you're a pro) by having people tell you negative **** from every angle, and certainly not by listening to how **** the odds are. I'm sorry, but I do intend to make a living out of it, and frankly I hope that one day I'm earning more than you are and helping newbies like me to get into the game they wanna do.

Rant over.

MM as my old mate Dave Friedman would say "You, are a piece of work".

Piglet has made it clear that her perspective comes from being an official at race circuits, you know the volunteer, unpaid bunch who make our sport possible.

She has been in many pitlanes and witnessed foolish or reckless behaviour from some folk who carry media credentials. Some of this behaviour comes from inherent stupidity and there's not much that can be done about that except ensure that their pass is a one off event. Mostly the problems come from inexperience in a dangerous and pressured environment and assuming that no real harm comes from these mistakes, then this will pass in time as the perpetrator learns the right way of doing things.

This is not "negativity", this is experience and observation. You would do well to consider her knowledge of how media behave in live race situations and try and learn not to make the mistakes that others have made before you.

In my view it is ludicrous that your first media pass should be at an FIA Championship event, a driver has to work his way through a licensing system to qualify to compete in such events as do marshals and officials to assume greater levels of responsibility, regrettably no such process is in place for media outside of Formula One.

A more logical progression would be to spend a season or two shooting club events, then progress on to Britcar, British GT, F3 and BTCC events before tackling FIA level races. It would also allow to hone your photographic skills trackside so that when the big day arrives you are in a position to take full advantage of the opportunity. This is how someone like Mike Hoyer has risen from the ranks of the aspiring to being a respected full time professional, that and loads of dedication, hard work and talent.

However you have a pass for the weekend, so make the most of this opportunity, be safe and come back with a bag of gold, photographically speaking

Negativity about the odds against becoming a full time professional motorsport photographer? No just a healthy dose of reality.

I was at Brands Hatch for the BTCC round a few weeks ago and by my reckoning only around ten per cent of the accredited media were earning their living through motor sport, even that might be an over estimate.

To make money in the UK circuit racing scene ie. being a professional, you have to work with one of the agencies, LAT, Suttons, Jake Ebrey etc., or have a deal with Haymarket who currently have a monopoly on motorsport magazines in the country.

That is not negativity, that is fact.

If the circuits of Europe and the rest of the world are your targets, well costs escalate and there is even greater competition from other agencies and freelancers.

As to Formula One, that is largely a closed shop with very strict criteria for allocation of passes,

To qualify for a permanent photographer’s credential the applicant must have attended at least 14 events during the previous year’s Championship. Only in cases the FIA accepts as force majeure the number of events may be lower than 14. Additionally, to qualify for a permanent photographer’s pass, at least 280 photographs, per pass issued, must have been published in the print press during the previous year’s championship.

Formula One is one of the places where a photographer can make a living and is intensely competitive, reflecting the action on the track.

Manufacturers and related companies are another source of income but in the UK the BTCC work is largely in the hands of one agency. There are no British companies competing at FIA Championship level except Aston Martin and the likes of Peugeot, Audi and Porsche have their own guys in place.

This is not negativity, this is fact.

Leaving aside the question of whether you have the requisite artistic, professional and business skills to make a success, you might like to consider the threats to the career of a professional photographer that are increasing on an almost daily basis. Remember you will be working for the next 50 years.

Rights grabs by circuits are an increasing factor as are limitations put on the use to which images shot can be put. To get a pass you have to sign a contract agreeing to these restrictions. In the US sports scene it is common for sanctioning bodies to deals with one photo agency, generally Getty, who then squeeze out the freelancers, I'm sure that's another trend that will come here as the bean counters figure another way to make a Euro.

The advances in technology over the past 15 years have made it possible for quite modestly talented individuals to take great images............auto focus, auto exposure, Photoshop manipulations have made a 180 degree change from the days of film.

The next step which cannot be far away will be the ability to capture usable still images from video.........at that point still sports photography will go the way of the DoDo..........

Every day I hear tales from professional photographers in every aspect of the business that revenues are falling, costs of doing business and living are rocketing and paying jobs becoming a scarce event........this is not motorsport but PR, Fashion, Photo Journalism etc........about the only area where I see income levels being maintained is in weddings and that bubble will surely burst in the present economic climate.

In choosing a career path such as photography, you need to be sure that that there will be a career to follow, I suspect that it will go the way of candlestick makers.

Enough, already, you have had good advice from those in the know, I suggest you listen.

Piglet · 17 Apr 2008, 09:36 (Ref:2179608)

Me a pro-snapper? uh no, as SA says I'm usually part of the race organisation team, I wouldn't work within motorsport as a day job, there isn't enough money in it for me, I prefer to have a real job and do motorsport, as a volunteer, for fun (well as fun as three hours each way to and from a circuit and 12 plus hours a day can be - but it is and I love what I do). I do a little media work occasionally but words not pictures. Unless you've not worked out Happy Snapper and I come as a pair so I've got lots of experience of the commercial side of the business and how little money their is in it. Enough to know that the sums required to buy, insure, repair, renew and update kit aren't covered by the money available.

I cut my teeth working pit lanes and could tell you days worth of stories of folks putting themselves and more importantly others at risk, as SA says some are inherently stupid, some are just inexperienced, they all put others at risk in the same way though.

I've done plenty of stupid things as well, it's so easy done even when you know what you're doing and have done it hundreds of times before. On one occasion at Silverstone I found myself in the middle (literally) of a quick F3 pitstop, I'd missed the bleeding obvious warning signs of four tyres and guys with wheel guns, I was preocupied with what I was doing and nearly slowed them down. I nearly got wiped out as well but that would have been my problem.

These days I mainly work "inside" and I get to deal with the paperwork when someone gets hurt, however it's better than having to deal with the casualties.

SA has explained how things are economically, you may not like it but it's a reality. I wish you a long and successful motosport photography career, if you get to be rich and famous from it you can claim to be right if it makes you feel any better....

I really do think you've missed a golden opportunity to get some assistance here, it's people like SA, Mike and those that may be lurking who really could have helped you out, SA's hasl helped many many people over the years. Mike has come through the ranks over the last few years and has benefitted from lots of help from the established guys. It's not a closed shop and these guys are in many cases very happy to help newbies out - even though those newbies inevitably work for free and give away their shots thus destroying an pro-market that their might be.

Anyway, I'm bored of this, enjoy it, good luck, make the most of what you are being paid - I assume you are being paid?

minimangler · 17 Apr 2008, 10:47 (Ref:2179694)

While I agree in some ways i was wrong with that post (i was in a bad mood anyway) i still believe there is a very negative stance taken toward new photographers, which makes them sometimes less inclined to listen to what is said. Don't worry- I have listened, but I intend to keep my hopes high and keep working at this.

MikeHoyer · 17 Apr 2008, 12:39 (Ref:2179781)

It's not negative, it's the facts.

**bella** · 17 Apr 2008, 12:41 (Ref:2179784)

i don't think there's any harm in wanting to make a living from photography, but just to assume you will do so is well, wishful thinking

it's one of those daft apprenticeship sort of industries where you have to go in as a n00b, keep your head down and be quiet (for example personally i don't think i'd have outed myself as having accreditation for such a big round as a first one!), speak when you're spoken to, ask for advice and not talk back, and just take it like a man - there's no room for cockery in any form of motorsport. if you want to be a muppet then you should be behind the wheel, not behind a camera

everyone makes fair points, but you have left yourself open for a sound kicking so don't act surprised when you get one. using words that get autocensored doesn't exactly demonstrate a great deal of maturity that these folk are looking for to accept you as a willing n00b either

it's about respect in ANY industry and working world, and i know for sure that if i were looking for an employee, having seen that display of toy chucking and sulking i wouldn't bother dealing with you.

just keep your head down, keep quiet and for the love of god don't go h0ring your pictures on the forum afterwards. that's just going to get a whole bunch of other-side-of-the-fence photographers bitter because they think they can do better!

**Peter Mallett** · 17 Apr 2008, 16:10 (Ref:2179937)

I thought I'd make a brilliant racing driver, which is why I'm a commercial manager.

Bella (sorry about the capital "b") makes a good point and I know Mike has spent many pounds and much time perfecting his craft.

but Mike you are wrong. Its "Its not negative its digital."

zac510 · 17 Apr 2008, 17:39 (Ref:2180001)

I know a few guys who are news snappers. I reckon you could combine a weekday news snapping job (casual) with a weekend motorsport snapping job and still make some OK money.. but getting into the newspapers is the hard part.

Tim the Grey · 17 Apr 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2180159)

Bella, I already have the excuses lined up ready to use, no worries!
He's here now, cluttering up my living room, nicking my Billingham, etc, etc!

Anywho.

Nuff said, I await the bleeding remains to be handed back behind the paddock, Friday evening please. Still breathing would be nice, or I have to explain to his Mum!

minimangler · 17 Apr 2008, 20:43 (Ref:2180162)

Bella, i'm not sure sharing work is necessarily whoring- isn't this a forum for discussion of photography? How can we discuss them if we can't see them?

And I don't mean to be cocky- i was aiming more for confidence, apologies if i crossed the line.

And yep, i stole the billingham. tan is so not my shade

MikeHoyer · 17 Apr 2008, 20:45 (Ref:2180165)

Nothing wrong with a tan Billigham...

minimangler · 17 Apr 2008, 21:59 (Ref:2180225)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

Nothing wrong with a tan Billigham...

But it clashes with my shoes

Hubble · 18 Apr 2008, 17:04 (Ref:2180810)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimangler

Bella, i'm not sure sharing work is necessarily whoring- isn't this a forum for discussion of photography? How can we discuss them if we can't see them?

MiniMangler - I think perhaps what bella is referring to is those individuals who find it necessary to post an excessive number of images from every meeting they attend - 'I went to the lawnmower racing at Kew Gardens at the weekend and here's my favourite 20 pictures, plus a link to my web page/gallery where you can find thousands more just like them' (literallly - just like them.....)

Unfortunately you have occasionally in the past been guilty of this (you even admit it here - http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=105192), so I think it was a fair comment.

Yes this is a photography forum, and I'm sure nobody would mind if images went up asking for advice on what went wrong, how they could be done better, editing, techniques, equipment etc - a photography forum isn't solely to discuss photographs...... What I think we all get fed up with is the same people posting the same type of photo's - completely lacking in any artistic flair. We can all do pans, 3/4 fronts etc - let's see some ART

I don't claim to be a great photographer, that's partly why I don't post images very often, but I do appreciate a great shot when I see it. Other than spectacular crash shots, I don't think I've seen much here for a while that showed any imagination or style. That's what I want!

I wish you well for this weekend, be safe, and go and shoot some great images, so next week you can post a couple to show us all how you justified your place as accredited media at the event.

Phil

Hubble · 18 Apr 2008, 17:17 (Ref:2180815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hubble

...... I think perhaps what bella is referring to is......etc

Sorry bella, I meant to add (bella please correct me if I'm wrong) to the end of that paragraph.......

minimangler · 20 Apr 2008, 00:52 (Ref:2181697)

Just a progress report- two days down, and so far i'm neither injured or dead, and i haven't damaged anything! All the advice has come in useful, thank you all very much.

I have some pictures, but i'm not gonna link for fear of death!

if you're there, see you on sunday, i'm the guy with the silly wooly hat with string on it.

redshoes · 20 Apr 2008, 09:05 (Ref:2181891)

If we are talking about dos and don't of being accredited media then these two jokers deserve a mention.

This is the start of the Harger Straight during the first Ferrari race on Saturday. One is kneeling down on the wrong side of the wall. It's probably not the most obvious place for an accident but is anything did happen he's got no chance of standing up and moving out the way in time.

Hubble · 20 Apr 2008, 10:35 (Ref:2181957)

Quote:

Originally Posted by redshoes

If we are talking about dos and don't of being accredited media then these two jokers deserve a mention.

.....one joker then......

redshoes · 20 Apr 2008, 10:43 (Ref:2181963)

Both, they swapped positions after a few minutes.

Piglet · 20 Apr 2008, 11:25 (Ref:2182003)

There was a snapper wandering in front of a GT3 car on the footage from Silverstone yesterday, there was one guy who clearly knew what he was doing, stood in the usual spot as the car came in, worked towards the back of the car and worked around the tv crew.

The other one (tall, lanky, black woolly type hat), wandered around in front of the car while getting in everyone else's way and trying to work out where to take his shot, the crew were having to watch him to see if he was getting out of the way. Not sure what happened the tv cut away to a different shot. If they'd just shoved the driver in, slammed the doors and the car had been on its way, he'd never have got out the way.