Seatbelt failure, still seems to be a real possible explanation for the death of DE

[Joe Fan]

The more that I think about this whole Dale Earnhardt seatbelt controversy, the more I am beginning to give the seatbelt failure theory more credibility in explaining the death of Dale Earnhardt.

Here is why:

1) On Dale's autopsy report, in addition to his basilar skull fracture, it indicated that he had a fracture that ran from the top to the back of his skull. This indicates to me that there was a blow to the top of his head, mostly likely from hitting the steering wheel or dashboard. In the final report prepared by Dr. Myers (see: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/orl-d...me%2Dheadlines), he does state that he believes Dale's chin hit (submentally)on the steering wheel and photos of the cockpit clearly showed a depressed area on the steering wheel to support this. However, he states that blow to the chin wasn't a factor in his death.

Knowing that Dale Earnhardt always sat down low and further back from the steering wheel (when compared to drivers like Gordon and Martin), how would it be possible for Dale to hit the steering wheel at all (let alone the top of his head) if his restraint system worked as it should have? I have sat in the seat of a stock car and it doesn't seem likely to me that his head could extend this far without the seat failing, wearing the seatbelts loose or having the belts failing altogether. I asked people who have raced stockcars on another forum and they seem to agree that it doesn't seem real likely.

[Joe Fan]

One other thing I would like to add, is that there could have been seatbelt failure without it being a product defect. If you think about this, if Dale loosened his belts during the red flag for Stewart's crash and didn't tighten them up, then this can explain a lot of things.

Wearing belts loose would mean that we he was thrown forward in the violent impact into the wall, that loose belts would allow his body weight to shift forward and apply more pressure on the belts. Taking into consideration that this body weight will effectively weigh several times more do to the rapid deceleration process, this would mean that the belts would be subjected to abnormal strain than what they were designed for.

[floid2000]

What was the safety workers reason for lying to the coroner ? He claimed to have cut the belt in his initial attempt to extract Mr. E from his car.

[Joe Fan]

floid, the first rescue worker that FIRST came to Earnhardt's aid said that the belt was broke when she initially climbed into the car. This Tommy Probst guy may not had the same belt in mind and who is to say that he isn't getting a check under the table from Simpson.

Also, an independent company in Sweden that has been hired by NASCAR to do some crash tests on seat belts have said recently that seat belts can break, even at 35mph impacts. Read all about it at: http://www.nascar.com/2001/NEWS/cnns...liv/index.html

One other thing, in order to not believe that the belt was broken during the crash, you would have to believe that a conspiracy was organized by NASCAR. What is their motivation? Dale's car crashed due to contact from Marlin, there is no mysterious reason for the crash. Teresa has indicated that she isn't going to sue over wrongful death. Also, it would be extremely difficult to prove that NASCAR was responsible for Dale's death anyway especially when racing is known to be a high risk sport to begin with. All drivers sign waivers acknowledging the risks. In order for NASCAR to be sued for wrongful death and negligence, the would have to be definitive proof that NASCAR knew something wasn't safe and didn't act. The company that manufactures the HANS device cannot proove its benefit so one cannot say that NASCAR was negligent for not mandating this device after the other deaths.

[Joe Fan]

I would also add that I replayed the Earnhardt crash in super slow-mo frame by frame the other day. I focused in on the driver's side window of Earnhardt's car frame by frame just before the impact and through the entire crash. Although this is nothing definitive since you really can't see much due to the black window net, I did notice from shadows that there seemed to be quite a bit of movement forward inside of the cockpit shortly after impact. I assumed this shadow movement was from Earnhardt's head since it doesn't seem to me that it could be anything else.

[Crash Test]

I'm not so sure a bealt broke, it could very easily have been a belt stretching- that's what they do in big impacts, and why you have to throw them out after you have one. Look ay Mika Hakkinen's Adelaide '95 crash. Head on into the wall, and his belts stretched to the point of his head hitting the steering wheel. Also remember that the seating position in an F1 car is much further from the wheel, than even Dales laid back position.

Another one I will never forget is a crash Greg Murphy had in a Touring Car at Phillip Island in 1997. Once again, he was seated well away from the wheel, but after an impact of around 150km/h his head hit the wheel. Even though he was wearing a full faced helmet, he still chipped teeth on the impact. I'd imagine that at 300km/h, an straight on impact like Dale's could easily have stretched the belts...

[Joe Fan]

Crash, what is really funny is if you read the latest link I have posted about the seat belt breaking, these experts conclude that his crash was really only a 35mph change in velocity. They essentially say that even though he hit at 185mph, it really only amounted to a crash of 35mph. If Earnhardt had hit head on, and came to a complete stop, then it would have been like a 185mph crash. So, it seems almost impossible to believe that such physics could cause his death with his belts on correctly.

[floid2000]

Isn't the local coroners report the only one that really counts for anything ?

[Crash Test]

Obviously someone sat down and figured out that it was a 35mph crash, and good for them, I'm sure they have good reasons to believe that is the truth. But if you have a look at the wreckage, it looked like a farily savage thump...and if that was the damage caused by a 35mph contact, id hate to see what happens when they hit at a decent speed...

[Joe Fan]

floid, the local coroner's report means something but a coroner is not an expert in crash dynamics. Therefore, they can give you the cause for death (basilar skull fracture) but they are just speculating that the violent whipping forward motion is actually what causes basilar skull fractures. There are supposedly experts who feel that basilar skull fractures are caused when the head hits something, not just from the whipping forward motion alone.

When you think about it, Gonzalo Rodriquez died from a basilar skull fracture. If you believe that this was caused from the initial impact he had and not from the subsequent ramming of his head in the ground as his car fell over the hill, then how could he have been killed by the forward whipping motion? There doesn't seem to be enough space in the cockpit of a Champ car for a significant whip to occur. But sitting as close to the steering wheel as those drivers do, it should be highly probable that their heads can hit the steering wheel if Earnhardt did without any supposed restraint failure.

[LynxSat.com]

>>There doesn't seem to be enough space in the cockpit of
>>a Champ car for a significant whip to occur.

Having been in a 100mph crash at Snetterton some years back, where I hit a stationery car, I can tell you from experience the forces are massive, in the car I was driving (single seater) I'd say you are no further away from the wheel than in a NASCAR or Champ Car, in fact I'd say some of them are even closer, but my head still went forward enough to bend the steering wheel (when it hit it), then backward enough to go THROUGH the head rest, note the word though....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Gonzo died from the impact with the wall, I agree with what you say, but to appreciate the forces involved you need to have experienced it - they are massive and not nice, I had bruises in places I didn't even know could be bruised.

No offence intended, and it's terrible when things like this happen, but I personally think that Bill Simpson has been unfairly blamed for this, even if the belt did break, then these things happen once in a while.

Maybe if Dale's car had been running a datalogger (I understand they are banned in races?) then there would be more info on the impact velocity, and it may had then been easier to understand.

[gomick]

dont want to sound to harsh, but i am getting bored with all this nascar/seatbelt talk.....out of interest, did the deaths of adam petty, kenny irwin and, sorry, forgotten the nascar truck drivers name - take up much nascar talk time, or where they just brushed under the carpet by nascar

[LynxSat.com]

You an me both, that was my first post on the subject, but yea, see what you mean.

[Emfa]

Originally posted by gomick
dont want to sound to harsh, but i am getting bored with all this nascar/seatbelt talk.....out of interest, did the deaths of adam petty, kenny irwin and, sorry, forgotten the nascar truck drivers name - take up much nascar talk time, or where they just brushed under the carpet by nascar

You're certainly not on your Pat Malone there Gomick. If you think it is bad from where you are sitting, try to imagine what it is like over here! This may be off topic and a little unrelated, but just to give you an idea, my brother (also an Aussie) is a salesman in North Carolina who has little interest in racing let alone Nascar. He says that wherever he goes, anytime the name Earnhardt comes up (and it often does) eyes glaze over and the mood drops. Emotions run very deep.

The death of Adam Petty got a lot of press because of the family ties. It was much less for Kenny Irwin and Tony Roper (and John Nemechek). In each of their cases there was little, or no, doubt about the cause of death. The uncertainty surrounding Dale's death and the depth of emotion have tended to drag this incident out much further.

[FordPrefect]

I would like to think that NASCAR's report will put the whole thing to rest but I have my doubts. It might end up like the JFK assassination, people believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.

I'm probably guilty of this as I have always said that it is the too rigid front end and NASCARS lack of responsibility re: full face helmets that led to Dale's death.

Perhaps I'll feel differently after the report comes out on Aug 21st(?)

Ford

[LynxSat.com]

Think you hit the nail on the head their FordPerfect

Ayrton Senna died because of piece of carbon fibre went through his visor (I'll leave the remaining bits out to avoid offending or upsetting people), but there are still people today who say otherwise.

[floid2000]

Did anyone else notice the man standing on the grassy knoll in the infield at daytona ?

[Crash Test]

Floid- Yeah i did, and then i saw him get into his UFO...

[LynxSat.com]

...and guess who was at the controls of the UFO?

ELVIS & Fox Mulder!

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by FordPrefect
I'm probably guilty of this as I have always said that it is the too rigid front end and NASCARS lack of responsibility re: full face helmets that led to Dale's death.
Ford

Ford, the coroner stated that the open faced helmet played no role in his death. Earnhardt believed that the bottom portion of a closed face helmet would act as a lever against the chest which would mean more broken sternums and possibly even enhance the likelyhood of a neck injuries--this could include basilar skull fractures. Theoretically, it sounds very plausible as the bottom portion of the helmet would dig into the chest and since the helmet is fitted securely, then this would pull away the back of the head from the neck region when the bottom portion of the helmet ran out of free space.

Also, if you are to criticize NASCAR for not mandating the closed face helmet, then you need to criticize FIA and quite a few sports car series. FIA sanctions World Rally and quite a few World Rally drivers (and almost all of their navigators) wear open faced helmets. Also, I see some sports car drivers wear open-faced helmets too in Grand-Am and other series.

The bottom line, the closed face helmet was initially created for drivers of open cockpit cars. Why? To keep their faces from getting hit by debris. This is not a concern in a closed cockpit car.

[Crash Test]

First of all, have Dale's believe that a full face helmet would act as a lever ever been a problem of people wearing them in crashes? If his face did hit the steering wheel, would a full face helmet been of a hinderance?

Rally drivers- they are nutters, remember these are the same guys, who up until recently didn't wear fire suits on the warmer rallys...

"To keep their faces from getting hit by debris. This is not a concern in a closed cockpit car."
- I wouldn't agree with that. This topic came up in the TC forum the other day- at Bathurst in 1986 Peter Williamson had his face pullverised when the fire extinguisher in his car broke away from its mountings during an accident. I'm sure there are other caeses too...the bottom line is that they offer more protection. The most common reason why people wear the open faced helmets is because they don't like the inclosed feeling, it restricts breathing etc.

[LynxSat.com]

Copy of the New Story in Autosport, general gist is design of car is to blame (i.e. NASCAR's rules), not the seatbelt or the open faced crash-hat.

-----------------

Findings of the NASCAR report into the accident which killed seven-time Winston Cup champion Dale Earnhardt are expected to call for major changes in stock car design in order to improve driver safety.

Earnhardt was killed during February's Daytona 500 after hitting the wall on the entry of Turn 4. Recommendations from the report into the crash are due to be released on August 21, but were leaked last week to American newspaper the Orlando Sentinel.

Reports suggest that a deformable structure will be introduced into the noses of stock cars in order to reduce the amount of energy transferred by the cars' steel tube frames to the driver in the event of a front end accident, similar to Earnhardt's.

Crushable structures could be inserted into the space between the front bumper and the engine bay, but such design changes have always been resisted in the past in order to retain the simplicity of stock car design.

The NASCAR report is also expected to concur with the verdict of independent court-appointed expert Dr Barry Myers, that Earnhardt's death was caused by the severity of the deceleration when he hit the wall and not a broken lap belt.

----------------------

Above is from the website, but in the mag there are some more bits:

...and having concluded that a perfectly sound racing harness, if 'bunched up' around the metal adjuster, can rip. This effectly exonerates.. ...Simpson Performance Products.

Dale Jarrett is also quoted on the next page "Did the seatbelt break? Yes... Did that cause [his] death? No, I never believed that what what caused Dale's death...

Personally I am rather glad that NASCAR are going to have to virtually admit they went on a witch hunt of Simpson, when they probably knew full well the design of the car was to blame.

[Joe Fan]

Crash, the fire extinguisher example is an extraordinary example. Kind of like the time Earnhardt had his moustache singed in a fire that came from Bill Elliott's car in a mutli-car pileup. This stuff can happen but it is rare.

Lynx, first of all, I would never quote anything from Autosport. They have no credibility in my mind, especially when it comes to NASCAR and American racing in general. Autosport used to be a reputable magazine way back but not any more.

Secondly, Autosport received that info as leaks from the Orlando Sentinal. NASCAR responded to these supposed leaks during the TV broadcast last week and NASCAR said that any speculation that the selt belt was not a factor in Earnhardt's death is premature.

Thirdly, NASCAR never has gone on record accusing Bill Simpson's product as being the reason for Earnhardt's death. Mike Helton said that they found a broken seat belt at that first press conference but they weren't sure how it was broke. Then physician Dr. Bohanon was the one who gave his opinion on how the seat belt could have caused Dale's death. Unfortunately for Bill Simpson, quite a few people took the bait and ran with it.

[LynxSat.com]

Lynx, first of all, I would never quote anything from Autosport. They have no credibility in my mind

too true, but at least they'll be the ones that are sued...

I suppose we'll all find out one day what really happened, but I still do not think the belt had anything to do with it.

NASCAR may not have said in as many word that the belt was at fault, but they implied it didn't they? it must have been enough for some people because Simpson retired due partly to death threats from DE's fans didn't he?

[Joe Fan]

Lynx, Bill Simpson resigned way, way after the death threats so I do not see any correlation between the two. Who knows really why he resiged. He went on record saying that his belts would not break if mounted correctly but this Autoliv outfit in Sweden has tested his belts with the same manufactured date as the ones that were in Dale car the day he was killed and guess what? His belts have been provent to fail in 35mph crashes.