the going rate - Page 2

badgerbaiter · 19 Jan 2007, 09:57 (Ref:1819183)

a few points:

being a motorsport photographer is preferable to working down a coal mine whether is raining on a test day or not.

with digital cameras its now a hell of a lot easier to take decent photos and you dont need as much talent as you did 10 years ago (not saying you dont need any talent). Nowadays some snappers (and i AM including some that get paid) just stand at the tightest chicane and hold down their rapid fire button. the picture editors then go through the shots and pick out about 1 in 1000. I stood at the chicane at Donington last year in the BTCC and i thought the guy behind me had a machine gun. My point being (yes, i am getting to it) is that as i said before the value of items is down to supply and demand. Now that its easier there are more photographers giving more supply. So its inevitable that prices will go down to rock bottom.

My main aim is to earn enough money from it to supplement my weekday business which doesnt quite pay the bills on its own. Like everyone else i want to earn money doing something I enjoy. Most people in this world dont enjoy their jobs and get paid naff all. So if i get paid for standing out in the rain shooting a test day then i consider myself lucky.

anyway, there will come a point when clients just get their photos from High Def TV stills, so we'll all be screwed anyway

badgerbaiter · 19 Jan 2007, 10:01 (Ref:1819185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

Of course a lot of these people who want to get trackside aren't too bothered about whether they get paid or not. So long as they get a clear shot, and maybe a few quid for a photo they're happy. .

so, you dont do any work for free? even just to get your foot in the door?

Happy Snapper · 19 Jan 2007, 10:15 (Ref:1819197)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapperjack

Worldwide?

Lets just say for now UK?

MikeHoyer · 19 Jan 2007, 10:18 (Ref:1819199)

Well I wouldn't say everything I've done has been paid for. But if that's the understanding, plus generally I am getting paid by someone for something... otherwise it becomes a bit expensive...

Working for free is fine up to a point, to get your foot in the door, and to help establish yourself. But you don't want to become known as someone who'll do it for free.

Or maybe you do? If you have a well paying day job and it's not an issue...

Happy Snapper · 19 Jan 2007, 10:19 (Ref:1819200)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

Do the people who work for these people/agencies count?

If that is there only income, and they dont have other jobs photgraphic or otherwise. Hence I'm excluding myself, I currently have three jobs or more :-

1. House husband (or will be in two weeks)
2. Driving Instructor
3. IT Consultant
4. Photojournalist

So if I didnt have jobs 1-3 I still don't count...

MikeHoyer · 19 Jan 2007, 10:26 (Ref:1819204)

I'm trying to imagine you as the first two...

redshoes · 19 Jan 2007, 13:36 (Ref:1819361)

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

being a motorsport photographer is preferable to working down a coal mine whether is raining on a test day or not.

Absolutely, however working down a coal mine would at least (I hope) earn you a living wage.

I suspect many people here see it as something they enjoy which might earn them a bit of extra beer money, over and above their regular 9-5 job. They happily forget the cost of their time, travel expenses and equipment involved. My point was that all too often I see, both here and on other forums, newcomers thinking there's easy money to be made.

Once you treat it as your your sole income and need to account for every expense, suddenly the maths don't add up as they expected. As Happy snapper says there are very few genuine full time motorsports photographers. Incidentally I was going to add Jeff Bloxham to that list but he's been known to do non-motorsports photography as well.

**bella** · 19 Jan 2007, 14:53 (Ref:1819416)

from a personal point of view, i know the unstable income and the difficulty in "making it" as a freelance without having immense natural talent or a gift for the gab was the main factor in not investing in appropriate equipment and trying to turn it into a career.

Samoan Attorney · 19 Jan 2007, 19:45 (Ref:1819692)

Exclude F1 and the agencies......the number would not be more than a dozen tops if we are talking about circuit racing...even most of those get a hefty chunk of their income guaranteed through association with Haymarket.

Better chance of becoming a professional driver.............better paid and the girls think you are cooler...........

John Brooks

Kelvin · 19 Jan 2007, 22:31 (Ref:1819854)

Not that many people have actually been brave enough to quote a price paid in this thread so far. I dont know what most of you guys get, but my most regular work comes from the MG Owners Club, and they pay me a flat rate of £20 per photo published in their magazine (circulation 50,000 approx). If I'm real lucky and there is space, they might print upto 5 pics, but sometimes its only 2. So potentially with 13 rounds of the championship I could earn up to £1300. I might travel from Cambridge to Oulton Park (a 5 hour round trip) and get 2 images printed, which does not even pay for the petrol. But a trip to Snetteron, is only 40 minutes each way, and I might 5 or 6 images printed.

I did two articles and photos about the WSR MGs in the BTCC last year which gave a slight boost to earnings, but that wont happen in 2007.

Andrew W · 24 Jan 2007, 21:17 (Ref:1825131)

I guess I come under the "WorldWide" banner....

I'm one of those fortunate enough to earn 100% of my income from this "niche" of motorsports, primarily motorcycle racing. In fact I had to back off the equine work (I still do portraiture - locally when I have time - and a lot of my equine work is used in advertising/stock which is a good sleeper/earner) because there wasn't enough time in the day.....

I'd also like to suggest that doing any of this for free with the intention of getting your foot in the door is not the way to go about it. You'll regret it in the long run and you're not doing the industry any favours either.

Andrew

PaulSands · 24 Jan 2007, 21:32 (Ref:1825153)

Thats the problem there is no going rate...get what you can without totally destroying the market. A local paper like the Lancashire Evening Telegraph pay £25 per shot...a not bad rate. Autosprout pay £35 I think for a small one, I've never quite been able to figure it out as every invoice I've had from them has been different. I've had £150 for the cover of an A5 automotive parts magazine, £50 for a single shot used as part of a GIF animation on a motor racing travel companies website and anything varying from £15 - £50 from various other outlets. Thats probably been offset by many gratis ones that have gone to circuits and organising clubs for inclusion in programmes etc. (Mallory's invitation to apply for a pass this year expressly states that they have dibs on any images they want...it may have always been so but it stood out this year)

I'm in a similar situation at the moment combining photography with IT consultancy (just over the winter).
Hopefully setting up a studio in the next couple of months. Motorsport will now unfortunately become a bit of an indulgence when spare time permits (probably 2009) unless it pretty much guarantees payment.
I was considering getting into the porn industry but I know I'd spend way to long "reviewing my content"

PaulSands · 24 Jan 2007, 21:34 (Ref:1825157)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew W

I guess I come under the "WorldWide" banner....

n fact I had to back off the equine work (I still do portraiture - locally when I have time - and a lot of my equine work is used in advertising/stock which is a good sleeper/earner) because there wasn't enough time in the day...
Andrew

As I've been seriously thinking of moving back to the USA, using my little girls citizenship as a lever

, that means theres a vacancy there then

I'm on my way

Andrew W · 24 Jan 2007, 21:55 (Ref:1825182)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulSands

As I've been seriously thinking of moving back to the USA, using my little girls citizenship as a lever

, that means theres a vacancy there then

I'm on my way

If you're serious about horse work, SoCal/San Diego/Ojai is a good location (I'm in NorCal), then Arizona/Texas, Florida/Ocala then on up to Virginia/Kentucky...

Andrew

PaulSands · 24 Jan 2007, 22:42 (Ref:1825240)

Its what I'm concentrating on at the moment

Tell me more

MikeHoyer · 25 Jan 2007, 00:32 (Ref:1825305)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulSands

I was considering getting into the porn industry

People always ask me if that's my ambition when I tell them I'm a photographer...

badgerbaiter · 25 Jan 2007, 11:59 (Ref:1825580)

so, if mags like autosport only pay 25 quid a photo how do agencies like LAT, xpbb etc make their money?

PaulSands · 25 Jan 2007, 12:12 (Ref:1825590)

I think you can safely assume that Autosprout isnt their only outlet and that they operate in the global marketplace

zac510 · 25 Jan 2007, 12:16 (Ref:1825595)

Doesn't sound like anybody in here is willing to work for free in order to get their foot in the door?
Do the big magazines offer such opportunities?

badgerbaiter · 25 Jan 2007, 12:22 (Ref:1825602)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zac510

Doesn't sound like anybody in here is willing to work for free in order to get their foot in the door?
Do the big magazines offer such opportunities?

i think there are plenty of people working for free, but as mike said they dont want to be getting known as people that work for free

in fact i bet people would not only work for free but actually pay money

PDS · 25 Jan 2007, 16:36 (Ref:1825786)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zac510

Doesn't sound like anybody in here is willing to work for free in order to get their foot in the door?
Do the big magazines offer such opportunities?

Some do except 'work experience' people! LAT have used a couple over the past years.

PaulSands · 25 Jan 2007, 19:13 (Ref:1825892)

What you dont understand, and I failed to grasp initially, is that too much free work undermines those that make their living from the profession. Bearing in mind my redundancy was largely due to a similar situtaion, outsourcing to the Indian sub-continent I can really feel for tose guys who are constantly faced with the "oh well I can get them free from Joe Bloggs" mantra

badgerbaiter · 25 Jan 2007, 19:39 (Ref:1825908)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulSands

What you dont understand, and I failed to grasp initially, is that too much free work undermines those that make their living from the profession. Bearing in mind my redundancy was largely due to a similar situtaion, outsourcing to the Indian sub-continent I can really feel for tose guys who are constantly faced with the "oh well I can get them free from Joe Bloggs" mantra

but thats the way things go.. the world changes. Like i said before, the digital age has made it much easier to become a decent photographer therefore supply outstrips demand, and when that happens the monetary value decreases. The only way to beat the changes is to adapt and evolve.

I'm guessing your old job was an IT job? Generations before the IT revolution lost their jobs because they werent needed anymore.. so its all swings and round abouts.

PDS · 25 Jan 2007, 19:57 (Ref:1825918)

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

Like i said before, the digital age has made it much easier to become a decent photographer

I really can't understand that comment!

PaulSands · 25 Jan 2007, 20:02 (Ref:1825926)

Of course its not quite the same as now the jobs are simply going to where the wages are cheaper not because less manpower is needed.

Believe me the digital age might make picture more quickly and readily available and increase the chance of getting one in focus but a digital camera does not suddenly a good photographer make. Nor does have lots of megapixels in your camera

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