the going rate

[badgerbaiter]

Originally Posted by PDS

I really can't understand that comment!

which bit dont you understand?

i could mention hundreds of ways that digital photography has made it easier.. but for a start you dont have to take the film out of your camera everytime you want to change the ISO.

and to Paul: i agree, digital doesnt mean you dont need talent.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

which bit dont you understand?

i could mention hundreds of ways that digital photography has made it easier..

Easier, Yes!

But as Paul says, It dosen't make you become 'a decent photographer'!
I know people that have gone from film to digital. And they still turn out crap pictures! It hasn't improved their photography.

My last film camera was almost identical to my current camera, except that it's digital. It dosen't take 'better' pictures!

You either have an eye for a picture, or you don't!

[badgerbaiter]

Originally Posted by PDS

Easier, Yes!

But as Paul says, It dosen't make you become 'a decent photographer'!
I know people that have gone from film to digital. And they still turn out crap pictures! It hasn't improved their photography.

My last film camera was almost identical to my current camera, except that it's digital. It dosen't take 'better' pictures!

You either have an eye for a picture, or you don't!

i didnt say that digital cameras makes you become an excellent photographer.
I said it makes it easier to become a decent photographer..

[PDS]

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

i didnt say that digital cameras makes you become an excellent photographer.

I never used the word 'Excellent'!

[badgerbaiter]

i think we'll end this here as its just going to go on and on (just like it always does when me and Mr Still get into a discussion on a forum)

hey, does that paragraph count as 'anti trolling'? Does that mean I can get a point taken off my warnings?

[PDS]

Originally Posted by badgerbaiter

(just like it always does when me and Mr Still get into a discussion on a forum)

Well that's news to me Mr Parravani!

i think we'll end this here as its just going to go on and on

Well at least we agree on that!

[Happy Snapper]

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

Exclude F1 and the agencies......the number would not be more than a dozen tops if we are talking about circuit racing...even most of those get a hefty chunk of their income guaranteed through association with Haymarket.

Better chance of becoming a professional driver.............better paid and the girls think you are cooler...........

John Brooks

Nope John Writes for mags also, I've worked with and for John for a few years now.

[Samoan Attorney]

Originally Posted by Happy Snapper

Nope John Writes for mags also, I've worked with and for John for a few years now.

Keith

this is me...........I could not remember the 500mm login or password........you know when old age and senility catches you up.............

John Brooks

[Happy Snapper]

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

Keith

this is me...........I could not remember the 500mm login or password........you know when old age and senility catches you up.............

John Brooks

Yep so it is


see you next weekend, house sales etc going as planned.....

[ss_collins]

LAT, xpbb etc make their money by charging certain people silly money for small things. Pros should not be expected to do freebies - ever. But you can get them to a decent price sometimes. LAT can be tough players on price, XPB are quite nice to deal with though you pay in euros. A lot of mags inc Racecar have standing contracts for image usage - ours is with LAT - who I personally feel have the best range - and a very good archive.

We deal with quite a few freelancers due to our specialist nature - though my increasing preference is towards snapper/scribblers. Though there will always be a need for a Bloxham type who pops up everywhere and just snaps away (did I just say that?).

Accreditation must be made tighter though as there are too many people trackside who don't need to be. That might solve the freebie issue.

as for the going rate - £20 - £50 seems to be the ball park for magazines before any of my lot get grumpy - you all get the same (exchange rate allowing!).


Heres another question then - books, commission shots and archive shots?

[badgerbaiter]

i think accreditation will get harder.. at the moment its relatively easy and a lot of people are jumping on the band wagon.

what a lot of people seem to forget is that its actually quite a dangerous occupation (i've had a couple of very close shaves, and i'm very careful where i stand compared to others), so i think its only a matter of time before someone gets hurt (i.e. twice as many photographers means twice the chance of someone getting hurt). When that happens then there will be the inevetibly knee jerk reaction and accreditation will be very hard to come by.
(all IMHO of course.. I'm no Nostradamus / Icke )

[MikeHoyer]

So I keep hearing, but at the moment it seems fairly easily provided you are connected, and have an idea how it all works.

[ss_collins]

I agree Nostradamus.

There are not that many proper publications going these days. Racecar, Race Tech, Autosport and MN, TRC and thats about it really, add in Crash, and globecast and thats about it. But if it was just those in the press rooms it would be very quiet indeed. Of course there will always be freelancers but how do you regulate them?

I think MSA press cards should be mandatory for all meetings in the UK and they should be strictly policed - I currently don't hold one because they are not needed at all at the moment as far as I can see. To get one I think you should either be full time employed as a snapper or scribbler or derive a significant income from it.

That would prevent tourists or hobbyists but it may prevent new freelancers so perhaps a buddy system of some sort is needed to ensure that new blood can come in.
From what I've seen of the press rooms of the world - everyone knows everyone pretty much (even at Le Mans or in F1) so its clear that when you see fan girls sat at the back of the office at Brands at an F3 meeting that they have blagged passes.

[Ian Sowman]

I think that is unnecessarily strict for the majority of race meetings Sam.

How, for example, would I fit in? I've been writing for various publications for ten years but derive < 10% of my income from it. According to the requirements for an MSA pass, I can't have one (although if I actually tried to get one, I might get it).

What about perfectly valid, serious websites such as (the late) FF1600.co.uk. I accept that there aren't many such sites around, but they do have a very important role in club racing. We used many reportrers and photographers, should we have struggled to get them accredited? Bear in mind that in the last few months three of our alumni have been winners of major awards.

To my mind, yes, there should be more regulation and yes, there are a lot of hangers-on. It wouldn't be that hard to stamp down on. I think organisers need to consider the quality of the work being produced and the contribution being made to the sport.

[DWA]

You have also forgotten that many of the teams in the major promoted series, F3, British GT & BTCC, often have " team" photographers to provide images for sponsors, websites & press releases etc ( I have been employed as one of these but I do have an RACMSA Media Accreditation as well ).
Also local newspaper groups often have people reporting on the local drivers/teams & sponsors.

[badgerbaiter]

why not just have a minimum lens size rule? if your lens is shorter than a metre then you cant get in

[ss_collins]

Ian - with high profile commentary, regular reports in the mags, a website etc.. I suspect that you could/do generate a notable (ie over 1K) sum a year from it.

[Ian Sowman]

Indeed I do, and I am fortunate enough to do so (although it isn't a large proportion of my income). However, I am not sure that is really the point.

[Suze]

I would hope if you tried you would get the MSA pass Ian. Enough people know you, have heard you commentating, read something you've written, the website etc etc etc - the people who need to know you, know you is the basic just of what I am saying!

There does need to be some sort of criteria / easy way of accrediting people such as your snappers / reporters and ensuring those needing to work do get the necessary accreditation. And I believe there should be one rule across the board for that.

The very first time I went to a circuit to write for somebody towards the tail end of 05, I had to pay £25 to get in (I can't remember why now but I think it's because my day job is not media related) but I presume also because before that, I had only written a couple of very small things. Was that right? I don't think so but the job needed to be done and so I paid for it, it came up the day before the meeting itself and that was that. I know of a couple of people who were turned down for ASI recently - motorsport is not their main income - but it would've taken ten mins to check references etc and see if they were genuine, which in that particular case they were.

[Kelvin]

On the point of the MSA accreditation, they are very hot on getting to the truth of who you are, and assesing what circulation your past photos have had or may have in the future. I cover, in general, club motorsport and my pictures are printed in magazines with a world wide circulation of 50,000, but from memory this falls well short of the required circulation required by the MSA. On that one point alone I can't apply for MSA accreditation, but does it make me any less of a photograher, or a hazard to others when I am trackside?

[PDS]

I really don’t see what is wrong with the criteria for obtaining a Press Pass at the moment! Providing the person handing out the passes sticks to it!

A letter from an editor of a bona fide publication stating that you are working for them. Plus cuttings from previously published work! Simple as that! It varies depending on who you are trying to get a pass from. But it's the same for photographers and journo’s alike.

Before anyone says anything, I am a freelance photographer, not a staff photographer! I have worked hard to get where I am today. I have picked up work because people like my work, not because of what I charge. People don’t mind paying for quality.

A lot of people seem to forget that most of the ‘Professionals’ here have spent a long time getting where they are…

I don’t begrudge anyone a press pass, providing they are entitled to it! Nothing peeves me more than standing at Paddock Hill at Brands and a guy comes along with a compact digital camera or one of these hand size digital video cameras, carrying a ‘Press Pass’.

Firstly, who let this guy out on track and secondly, what sort of picture is he expecting to get at the bottom of Paddock with one of these camera’s is beyond me. I can understand why some very good ‘amateur photographers’ get upset. Badgerbaiters comment about the size of your equipment is not that silly!

As for DWA’s comment about Team’s Photographers, most that I know already have a press pass of some sort! Also I don’t think income should come into the equation either, some obviously earn more than others

Just a note about my MSA pass. Of all the meetings I went to last year, I never used mine once! But my philosophy is, if your entitled to it, claim it!

[badgerbaiter]

the trouble with the system the way it is, is that because there are now so many publications (including websites) that too many people can get accreditation.

I hear the comment about the compact cameras quite a lot, but most of those guys have press passes as journalists and just need a couple of shots to go with the story (we are talking mainly local papers here). I dont begrudge them. Although I think they should maybe be briefed on safety.. If i hadnt grown up with motorsport all my life then i wouldnt know the safest places to stand.

btw, my first ever even with a media pass was Brands Champ Car race with a 2 megapixel sony cybershot.. had not clue what i was doing but eventually got the hang of pressing the button 2 secs before the car arrived in the frame

[Kelvin]

smaller photo plz!!

thankyou :-)

[Suze]

Out of interest BB, how did you get your accreditation for that?

Personally, I feel there's a huuuuge difference between a point & click guy taking a close up in the paddock of a car, or technical element etc, than there is of taking a shot of cars into the first corner on the first lap of a race for example. But due to locations and circumstances, it's normally pretty easy to tell the two apart.

[PDS]

Journalist's 'Normally' do not get trackside passes!

Also most web-sites only get journalist's accreditated, not normally photographers!

Again, it's down to the person giving out the passes!