[Team] Ferrari: in F1

[chunterer]

Alonso failed because he was stuck behind Petrov in 2010 amd squandered a 40 point lead in 2012? Interesting take on history....

2010 was quite mysterious i'll give you that but I'd give Bernie a ring to get your answer on that one. Basically Ferrari called the wrong strategy to put Alonso out of position in Abu Dhabi but there is no need to go back over it all again.

2012?! The consensus has long been accepted that Alonso did exceptionally well to be in contention for the title at all. From mid season onwards his car was not in the frame. He hung on as best he could. Vettel not retiring in Interlagos was a fluke by all accounts.

I recall Alonso making 2 or 3 gaffs at the worst in all his time with Ferrari whereas Vettel has done that near enough every season since he joined!

Alonso would annihilate Vettel!!

[Cinghio44]

Alonso is the past and I avoid to speak about him because he won't return.

That said, the cars that Alonso drove were never on the level of the Red Bull! He used his talent to equalize the disparity and with some luck he could also won a Championship (Spa crash of Grosjean...)

In that aerodinamic Era Red Bull had the upper hand thanks also to some fantastic solution signed Newey and Ferrari lack of development during the seasons, ad always...

That cars lack technically against Red Bull, the story seems to me very different now (2017-2018)

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Alonso failed because he was stuck behind Petrov in 2010 amd squandered a 40 point lead in 2012? Interesting take on history....

2010 was quite mysterious i'll give you that but I'd give Bernie a ring to get your answer on that one. Basically Ferrari called the wrong strategy to put Alonso out of position in Abu Dhabi but there is no need to go back over it all again.

2012?! The consensus has long been accepted that Alonso did exceptionally well to be in contention for the title at all. From mid season onwards his car was not in the frame. He hung on as best he could. Vettel not retiring in Interlagos was a fluke by all accounts.

I recall Alonso making 2 or 3 gaffs at the worst in all his time with Ferrari whereas Vettel has done that near enough every season since he joined!

Alonso would annihilate Vettel!!

2012 At Brazil, when the title was on the line, Alonso sailed off the track multiple times and required assistance from Massa in the form of assistance in overtaking other cars and giving up positions. He barely had the legs on a driver that we all know is not even in the same league as him. He was absolutely not on the form he needed to be that day. Vettel not retiring was more than countered by Lewis and Hulk retiring from ahead of Fernando. He was gifted positions that day which kept him in the title fight, even from his own team mate.

I am a big big Alonso fan, but he had his chance at Ferrari and it was thrown away in a mixture of poor shows by him (granted, not that many, but there were enough to make a difference), and some terrible Ferrari tactics. I agree that generally speaking, Alonso is one of the bst, if not the best driver we’ve had on the F1 grid in the last few years. But that isn’t enough to force me to ignore that he achieved no more than Vettel at Ferrari, and multiple titles were squandered.

[S griffin]

To be fair Fred's only major mistake in 2012 was the first corner at Japan. In my view he deserved the title more than Vettel. To see him win the title in that undeveloped Ferrari would have been the equal of Rosberg in 82 and Prost in 86

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

To be fair Fred's only major mistake in 2012 was the first corner at Japan. In my view he deserved the title more than Vettel. To see him win the title in that undeveloped Ferrari would have been the equal of Rosberg in 82 and Prost in 86

That's the thing too - when Vettel has an off, even if he recovers, that's a major mistake. But Brazil 2012, the title is on the line, and Alonso is absolutely no where - he's left his skills at home, and he's off the road as well. Why is that a major mistake for Vettel, but for Alonso it's forgottten about?

Again, I'm an Alonso fan, and I do think Alonso is a better driver than Vettel. But they've both made the same types of errors when at Ferrari. It does suggest that the environment that the drivers have to operate in is conducive to these sort of problems.

Alonso had his shot at Ferrari. He had two very clear goes at the title and both times didn't manage it. Wishing Fernando was back at Ferrari ignores the history of what happened there. It's like wishing Nigel went back to Ferrari after 1992 - it didn't work out the first time, and second chances rarely work out either.

Ferrari have bigger problems to solve than the drivers, and always have done.

[S griffin]

To be fair he was relying on Vettel not scoring that day. And the conditions were very changeable that day, I think even Webber had a few offs and Kimi remember went up the escape road and found the gate was closed! And in fairness to Vettel he was just in the wrong place at wrong time on the first lap, not really his fault

[Cinghio44]

The big difference between Alonso and Vettel is that SEB had a car competitive enough to win the title (as showed by Kimi in the last part of 2018). That's the point...!

Alonso 2012 season was phenomenal because that car lack of serial development to fight for the Championship. He was a bit down on form in the last races but surely the Grosjean crash at Spa was a big blow in term of points.

Completely different stories and completely different level of dignity!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Cinghio44

The big difference between Alonso and Vettel is that SEB had a car competitive enough to win the title (as showed by Kimi in the last part of 2018). That's the point...!

Alonso 2012 season was phenomenal because that car lack of serial development to fight for the Championship. He was a bit down on form in the last races but surely the Grosjean crash at Spa was a big blow in term of points.

Completely different stories and completely different level of dignity!

And that's the point - he was down on form in the last races. When the pressure was on and he really had to pull it out of the bag, he wasn't at Alonso level - he wasn't even at average Alonso level - he was at just above Massa level. At Interlagos he was nowhere. He's a far far superior driver to what he did that day.

Once again, I'm not saying "hoho, Vettel is much better" (because he isn't), I'm pointing out that Alonso was in the position of having to perform too and couldn't do it. Ferrari have had this problem since the Schumacher era ended. Wishing Fernando was in a Ferrari is wishing for something we've already seen. It didn't end well for anyone.

Ferrari also need someone that doesn't get wrapped up in politics. Someone more immune to the issues they have. Fernando is not that driver. Arguably Vettel isn't either, but Fernando does have a habit of falling out with teams. Leclerc may be more suited to this.

[S griffin]

I don’t think he was that out of form. Yes he made a few mistakes in Brazil, but he always gave 100% in every race he did. Certwinly it didn’t help that he didn’t have the advantage in points

[Cinghio44]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

And that's the point - he was down on form in the last races. When the pressure was on and he really had to pull it out of the bag, he wasn't at Alonso level - he wasn't even at average Alonso level - he was at just above Massa level. At Interlagos he was nowhere. He's a far far superior driver to what he did that day.

Once again, I'm not saying "hoho, Vettel is much better" (because he isn't), I'm pointing out that Alonso was in the position of having to perform too and couldn't do it. Ferrari have had this problem since the Schumacher era ended. Wishing Fernando was in a Ferrari is wishing for something we've already seen. It didn't end well for anyone.

Ferrari also need someone that doesn't get wrapped up in politics. Someone more immune to the issues they have. Fernando is not that driver. Arguably Vettel isn't either, but Fernando does have a habit of falling out with teams. Leclerc may be more suited to this.

Maybe you don't see the point! Alonso at least arrived in the last race with the chance to win. (He did well in 2012 and earned with his performance this chance)

Vettel screwed totally his campaign in 2018 with a car at least at the level of Mercedes! He did some mistakes also in 2017 but this year he was horrendous.

And luckily for Vettel, he has only to face 1-2 drivers for the Championship. Just immagine a more competitive Championship...c'mon let's be objective

[Akrapovic]

I see the point perfectly. 2007 and 2010 Fernando should’ve won the title. 2012 he had a really good chance and he left his A-Game at home. I’m a big Fernando fan, but similar to Will Power over in IndyCar, he’s bottled it more times than he’s won it. Vettel has arguably bottled it more, but again, my point is that wishing to see what’s Fernando could do in a Ferrari (or better car of any colour) is a bit daft - we’ve all seen it. It didn’t go well.

Let’s be realistic here - Vettel has bottled it. But like Fernando before him, Ferrari contributed a number of significant mistakes to the problem. And as long as that continues to happen, they will not take another title. Ferrari absolutely have to clean up their act.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

I wrote some years ago that Ferrari had confusion as a key part of their DNA. It is only when foreigners run the team that it achieves success.

Binotto's C.V. suggests that he may be the exception that proves your rule.

Here is hoping!

[peterelise]

Binotto is Swiss so him leading a transformed Ferrari will not be an exception to the rule!


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[Kempi]

Ferrari did not have a car capable of winning the championship after Spa. Mercedes was much too dominant after that point in terms of car and team strength.

[Moneyseeker]

Interesting take from Rosberg on Vettel v Leclerc - he thinks SV will be up against it ...


http://www.grandprix.com/news/vettel...s-rosberg.html

[S griffin]

I think a lot of people are saying this will be a big test on Seb

[Akrapovic]

If SV isn't up against it then it's the wrong choice.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If SV isn't up against it then it's the wrong choice.

Agreed and it will be interesting to see if he can up his mind management, should LC start establish himself in the team.

[chillibowl]

say what you will about Arrivabene, but he did about as good of a job as anyone at keeping the media at arms length. i also think he might have been instrumental at turning a reluctant Kimi into a social media darling which i also think took some attention away from the team's other difficulties.

now with him (and Kimi) gone, the media will all be looking for one story...drama and friction at Ferrari.

nothing new i suppose but i actually feel sorry for both Ferrari drivers. its going to be a difficult year for both of them. more so if they actually do well.

[S griffin]

Yes Arrivabene did have that charisma to him, which was a big boost to the Ferrari and the sport

[Cinghio44]

Arrivabene with charisma? Have you ever heard him speaking? At least in italian he seemed always scared of some judgement. Surely the same of Jean Todt...with charisma or not

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes Arrivabene did have that charisma to him, which was a big boost to the Ferrari and the sport

[S griffin]

Yeah, but he did have an enthusiasm for the sport, which was good

[Skam85]

Surprised it hasn't been posted yet, but Mick Schumacher is now officially part of Ferrari's young driver programme.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...ramme/4326348/

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Surprised it hasn't been posted yet, but Mick Schumacher is now officially part of Ferrari's young driver programme.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...ramme/4326348/

Should be a really good relationship between the race drivers and the trainee, Seb and Mick. Vettel was very close to Michael, and I am sure he will be close to Mick.

[S griffin]

I think a lot of people want to see Mick do well. He’s very talented