The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

But what happens there Peter? Will we see a turnout of <48% because you can be sure the usual suspects will stand for re-election. Will we get a government by default? Because there isn't time to get a new national party up and running.

The political types are relying on inertia and they may just be rewarded.

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I suspect the latter. Equally if there is another referendum I suspect the leave voters will just shrug their shoulders and walk away. If that happens I fear for the stability of the country. The remainers will crow and the leavers will take action.

Not a pleasant thought but anger has a funny way of showing itself.

[Gerard C]

We are about to vote, not very usual here, and from your words I seem to recall and old proverb: He who sows the wind reaps the storm. In other words, "qui sème le vent, récolte la tempête"…

[Peter Mallett]

Oddly enough and I confirm I hadn't read this until after my post above:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...it-referendum/

[midgetman]

Peter I'm absolutely certain that if there were a second referendum today the result would be remain. Not necessarily because of a change of heart by the country but by inertia and gerrymandering.

I'm also certain that, whether we leave or remain, March 29th will not be the end of it. This country is now so divided that it will take a generation or more of economic stability and growth to settle down. Which I suspect we're not going to get in either case.

All together now:

"There are bad times just around corner.....Black birds over the grey cliffs of Dover...."

https://youtu.be/lCZCv98XKFs

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[Peter Mallett]

I agree with all your points.

[VIVA GT]

This whole crock of crap has wasted a load of time and money. When we had the original referendum (which must have cost a fortune on its own) there was very little information from either the remain or leave sides to enable an uniformed person (me) to make a proper decision in the end, leaving me to just guess (I voted remain for what it's worth believing that would be how the majority would vote, but was relieved I didn't make a protest vote to leave otherwise I would have felt responsible fore the outcome!).
Since that time we've had various governmental ministers travelling all over the world for 'talks', 'Brexit' ministers have been appointed and have resigned, other MP's have come and gone, and we are still no nearer to resolving the situation.
So, the latest 'solution' is for another referendum which will take more time, and cost more to hold & administer, meaning that this cannot be completed before the pre-arranged deadline.
If the result of this is still to leave, then we have gained nothing, just wasted a load more time and money, and the whole process has to be continued.
If the result is to remain, then the complete fiasco has been a gigantic waste of time and money, plus, I can't imagine that the rest of The EU Community will do the UK any favours after we'd said we don't like them any more and want to leave their gang, which will also cause us more discomfort.
Frankly I'm sick and tired of the whole thing and wish we could get it all over & done with and get back to life as it was before...
(I also caught the end of something on Radio 4 last night where someone was making a case that if there is another referendum there should be 3 options: Remain, Leave with a deal or Leave with no deal. Unfortunately I didn't hear all of his arguments for this, be he seemed very forthright and convinced that this was right...)

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

This country is now so divided that it will take a generation or more of economic stability and growth to settle down. Which I suspect we're not going to get in either case.

The EU, even individual countries within the EU, hardly look like it/they are in for periods of relative stability in the fairly near future.

So I suspect that you are right.

The voters may already have that impression as well.

Referenda or General Elections could be extremely unpredictable and maybe not at all founded in logical thinking.

[bauble]

I watched the BBC Question Time on U.Tube, and from audience reaction to the various points raised and the answers given, I was convinced that the majority are in favour of simply leaving the EU. The question of 'deals' was continually brought up by Remain supporters, all desperate to call for a 'Public Vote', "Now that we know so much more about the effects of leaving".
The members of the audience who spoke were mainly in the 'Get Out' camp


Even Diane Abbott said that if there was a second referendum Leave would win again. The point was also made that if a second result ended up as, say 52/48 to remain, would that settle the issue? No.

I was amused when one member asked Diane Abbott; If there was a General Election and Labour won, would she call for a second election to see if people had changed there mind? Much laughter.


I am absolutely convinced that the only sensible option open to Parliament is a no deal exit, the bunch of ******s can not agree on anything, so a crash out (lovely phrase) will happen automatically.
Roll on!

Deeply committed Leaver voter, and confident Englishman.


Aka Bauble.

[Mike Bell]

I was looking for a birthday card for someone this morning and saw this Matt cartoon...

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'm also certain that, whether we leave or remain, March 29th will not be the end of it. This country is now so divided that it will take a generation or more of economic stability and growth to settle down.

I've said that from the start, and nothing in the last two years has changed my opinion!

[Peter Mallett]

Had the result been respected than I suspect the process would have been less of a mess.

And before anyone suggests that leavers didn't know what they were voting for because they were told lies, remember if one accepts that argument, remainers voted because they'd been told the UK would suffer a crash and inflation would be rife etc. if the leave vote won.

Today's figures show the EU productivity failing whilst the UK seems to be in rude health with better than inflation pay rises etc.

Personally I don't think either side believed what it was told. It was a binary choice hence it was close. The only sure thing was that those who voted knew it was important. This last point has been lost on the politicians.

[midgetman]

Bauble it's not about being a confident Englishman. It's about being a realist.

There's now hundreds of fractious lorry drivers on every boat, and do you think that even our high quality border staff will be able to get to grips with new procedures and new paperwork for all those drivers in less than two months? Particularly as we don't even know yet what the paperwork will look like!

I predict a fracas at the very least.

Sheer volume of traffic has changed in the last fifty years, that's why it's different these days. When we ran the Olympics the Gamesmakers and organisers were practising for months beforehand. How are we going to get everything working smoothly in the time left?

We need two years from the date the exit agreement is signed, not two years from when we decide to leave. This has been an impossible timescale and the EU knew it!


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[bauble]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Bauble it's not about being a confident Englishman. It's about being a realist.

There's now hundreds of fractious lorry drivers on every boat, and do you think that even our high quality border staff will be able to get to grips with new procedures and new paperwork for all those drivers in less than two months? Particularly as we don't even know yet what the paperwork will look like!

I predict a fracas at the very least.

Sheer volume of traffic has changed in the last fifty years, that's why it's different these days. When we ran the Olympics the Gamesmakers and organisers were practising for months beforehand. How are we going to get everything working smoothly in the time left?

We need two years from the date the exit agreement is signed, not two years from when we decide to leave. This has been an impossible timescale and the EU knew it!


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Midge, While not directly affected by the problems you list, I anticipate that the repercussions will cause disruption to my sedentary existence, I honestly believe that what Remainers fail to appreciate is that most Leavers
are happy to accept the consequences of the their decision.
Short term (even 5/10 years) disruption is small beer when compared to the long term advantages to the UK of not being tied to a Brussels bureaucracy with all of it's incompetence and corruption, and well free of the drain on our Treasury. Supporting non-productive countries with failing economies is not sensible when we have enough problem with our own finances.

Far too many people are concerned with March 30th 2019 I feel when March 30th. 2029 will be the 'Sunny Uplands'.


I recognise that this forum reflects the country at large, fairly evenly split stay or go.

I will defend your right to be wrong to the death.

(All of the above is meant in friendship)

[midgetman]

I know Bauble, I know.

Remember I only ever play Devils Advocate. But 10 years time is a very.long time. Who'd have guessed in 2008 we'd be looking at any sunlit uplands at all.



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[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I was looking for a birthday card for someone this morning and saw this Matt cartoon...

Excellent

[bauble]

1) Should the UK 'crash out' of the EU.?

2) Should the UK remain in the EU if a 'deal' cannot be secured?

Vote 'A' for 1 or B for 2.

No discussion or hesitation allowed.



National Council for the Prevention of Doubt on Referendum Results.

[apriliadriver]

I think one thing that we can be sure of - it will be 100 years before any government tries giving the British voters a Referendum again - on any subject. [OMG, the voters at least the thick racist ones got it wrong !! Us good-thinking (bien pensant) people know what's best for the voters. We can see the future ! We don't use this rare skill to make bets on horse-races and make a fortune, but WE know what's best for YOU the stupid ones].


Luckily, the record of the Good-thinkers over the last 50 years underpins their self-confidence.


Luckily, also, the instinctive British sense of knowing when you're being conned gave us the 2016 People's Vote result.


As you might have gathered (!), I voted Leave....
Nick

[Gerard C]

Why 100 years, Nick, ha non, mais pas du tout! In France we had to vote about a new european constitution it was in 2005. We said no but couldn't stop them. Fourteen years later, we gonna vote again. Probably with the same effects whatever the result… We have a very vulgar expression here saying something like "before using again your knife, we would appreciate you wait till the scars heal to do that". Of course, you can replace the word knife and locate the scars wherever is convenient… or not!

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I know Bauble, I know.

Remember I only ever play Devils Advocate. But 10 years time is a very.long time. Who'd have guessed in 2008 we'd be looking at any sunlit uplands at all.



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...and therein lies another issue; typical UK short-termism. 10 years is no time at all, it passes so quickly no-one can remember that far back. In 2008 apparently there was a bit of a bank problem - most people will have forgotten all about it well before now.

[midgetman]

That's just not true. We all well remember and that was my very point. During the bank crisis there was no sign we would be leaving the EU to sunlit uplands/total disaster.

But 10 years could be three elections, each one with a different set of ambitions. People change their own priorities. 10 years *is* a long time these days.




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[mark_l]

UK Governments only think in 5 year cycles because they are short sighted and are not looking out for the national interest, only their own self serving interest.

They announce plans that by 202.. this will happen or that will be achieved knowing full well that by then it will be a problem for someone else.

An MP may resign their cushy minor role in an insignificant government department to make a statement about how they feel/get some news coverage about Brexit or such issue, but don't feel convinced enough to resign from their party or resign as an MP because they know that if they do, their days on the gravy train are numbered.

They serve as an MP for a couple of terms before going off in to private business where they know the lucrative money is.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

...and therein lies another issue; typical UK short-termism. 10 years is no time at all, it passes so quickly no-one can remember that far back. In 2008 apparently there was a bit of a bank problem - most people will have forgotten all about it well before now.

Along the same line of thinking ....





The newest generation of 'advisers' and, more especially, voters will have have lived half their lives in the post 2008 era of recovery. If one thinks back to one's early 20's, for example, and then attempts to remember the 10 year prior to that - say ages 15 to 25 or thereabouts - the period would seem like an eternity. Ages 10 to 20 even more so.

For most of them the banking crisis will not be a memory at all.

And then there is this which applies perhaps more to politicians than to business leaders:

[Mike Bell]

So knighted British entrepreneur, inventor, and brexit supporter Dyson is now moving his company HQ to Singapore. We’re told it’s nothing to with us leaving the EU, and makes sense with his manufacturing already based there. Plus his forthcoming electric car will be built there also.

But still seems a bit of a snub to me......

[midgetman]

It's exquisite timing. Apparently only 4% of his sales are to the EU so I suppose it makes sense. Still he's a very, very wealthy man so what does he care how it looks?

He promises no job losses but I can't understand how that will happen. Coming on the back of Cooper Avon, it's not been a good time for north Wiltshire.



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[Peter Mallett]

Well Singapore is a low tax regime so from that POV it makes sense. And with the www you don't need to have your headquarters with your manufacturing base. I'd suggest this is more about his fears of remaining than brexit. If he only sells 4% to the EU why does he need to bother?