Rolling Starts in Historic Racing (from Masters Snet thread)

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

But this is HISTORIC racing we're talking about and I don't seem to recall rolling starts in period.

Yes of course OT again! Grey matter stirring Spa 1000kms 73? Definitely not 72, though almost, 2x2 grid, famous for two mechanic's trying to push start a 911 as the flag dropped in the middle of the grid Can Am starts, and a couple of Euro 2litre rounds were rollers, if memory intact

[morninggents]

Looks like I'm on a loser on this one, then.

[MGDavid]

as a matter of interest when did Le Mans do away with the trot across the track, and did they go straight to rolling starts or were there a few years of grid starts in between?

[kipper]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

as a matter of interest when did Le Mans do away with the trot across the track, and did they go straight to rolling starts or were there a few years of grid starts in between?

The last Le Mans to start with the driver running across the circuit was in 1969. The 1970 race started by having the cars arranged in the same formation as with previous races, however, drivers were already in the cars when the starting signal was given. A rolling start was used from 1971 onwards.

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by kipper

The last Le Mans to start with the driver running across the circuit was in 1969. The 1970 race started by having the cars arranged in the same formation as with previous races, however, drivers were already in the cars when the starting signal was given. A rolling start was used from 1971 onwards.

Forgot that one, Ickx walked across in protest at the 'Le Mans' start in 69?

[midgetman]

Yes he was last car away and he went through to win.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by JimW

From observation over many years I agree with all the comments about safety (and I'm sure, mechanical sympathy) but there are some circuits which do not have a startline position/layout which is optimum for delivering a safe and fair start. In the UK Donington must be the worst example followed perhaps by Thruxton.

Just a comment; I'm not sure there is a remedy.

Regards

Jim

I think this is the first time we've ever disagreed Jim . In Masters series races, we've had some of the best, fairest and regulated rolling starts in over 3 years at Donington - I always put that down to the 'chicane' just before the startline and the subsequent short entry of the pace car into the pit lane entrance.
I'm always anxious to listen to competitors views but I believe that my views seem to be vindicated.

[terence]

Quite agree John,the position of any slowish corner certainly doe's make for better Rolling Starts.Far easier to control,but there is still the problem of competitors lacking the ability of actually Reading Regs/Listening to whats being said during the Pre-Race briefing.After reading through Pieters Reg's,sound's as though he has some good ideas on the matter,certainly should make the drivers take note?

[simon drabble]

I am - like Gordon - in both camps here. I like the safety of the rolling starts but they do lack any excitement and whilst most of my racecraft is extremely average I can start quite well so I prefer static but my wallet prefers rolling!

[COLIN STUBBS]

Im still licking my wounds from a pretty nasty just off the start shunt at Snetterton.
OK my car isnt particularly historic but it is (was) in sort of period Rover Dunlop Cup livery.
Anyhow for what its worth heres a few personal opinions of starts.
Standing starts are ok if everyone gets away and shows some respect.Often this is sadly lacking because...

Someone wants to win from a lowly grid position by the first corner.

Reprimands should be issued for drivers who take to the grass to try and gain places.

In 2 driver races sometimes the start is made by the slower of the 2 drivers and car is gridded by the quicker driver .

In a mixed field some cars have LSDs and some of the faster cars dont resulting in vastly different getaway speeds. As do mixes of RWD and FWD cars.

The shunt Iv just had was due to some argy bargy going on out of my sight. Id passed the cars involved but one of them speared off and into the rear side of my car which spun me round through the field into the barriers.Then I was hit hard in the door by a car having its own seperate accident.
I think a rolling start would have saved this.
OK we all love a good start and its all part of the fun but we do need to stay safe!

[zefarelly]

I like Standing Starts, and have done well from them to date

I can see the Rolling argument and don't object in the lightest but I've yet to be involved in one which was anywhere near sensibly observed.

having said that, one of the last standing starts, I did the front 3 where in 2nd gear before the lights went out . . .nice thing was they kept the panel damage contained!

[morninggents]

Colin, the first three points you make could still happen under a rolling start.

I have to say I'm not yet convinced of the safety aspect and will be looking at the race reports of Masters Series races very keenly in the future.
As a matter of interest has anyone done a study of the safety aspects of standing and rolling starts?

[Al Weyman]

I wish CTCRC would introduce rolling starts, I have asked many times.

[zefarelly]

personally I've seen more misdermeanours with rolling that standing.

I'm with morningents, its part and parcel of racing historically

as a minor aside, the general state of tune of most historics does lean toward a rolling start, powers up 50% . . . . but then you've got a modern gearbox and halfshafts to suit I guess!

[jellison]

Rolling starts - Er No Thanks.

This is one of the most important parts of a race. Alot of the skill of making a good or having a crap start is lost here and the you have all this stuff about being hard to interpret when you can go or not (will always be someone going b4 you!).

Yep daft.

The start is the bit where you really feel alive, with blood pumping hard, because it is more dangerous, but then Motorsport IS.

[Colin McKay]

Sort of with Jellison on this, although I only have a 50/50 standing start success rate, the new clutch should help with that. I have only experienced a couple of rolling starts, at Spa, and didn't much like them as the front half of the grid was miles away by the time the midfielders - who had bunched up and virtually stopped at the chicane - got themselves together, leaving a lot of distance to make up. Maybe this is all down to education, at the briefing there was a lot of confusion about the rules.

Standing starts are an inherent part of historic racing, and an entirely seperate skill, I love 'em.

[jellison]

Originally Posted by Colin McKay

Sort of with Jellison on this, although I only have a 50/50 standing start success rate, the new clutch should help with that. I have only experienced a couple of rolling starts, at Spa, and didn't much like them as the front half of the grid was miles away by the time the midfielders - who had bunched up and virtually stopped at the chicane - got themselves together, leaving a lot of distance to make up. Maybe this is all down to education, at the briefing there was a lot of confusion about the rules.

Standing starts are an inherent part of historic racing, and an entirely seperate skill, I love 'em.

Good point on the very quickly spreading out issue, and if the race is not "that" long you could be buggered trying to make it up after some johnny has just "cheated" at the start (and it is not like this if F1 where you are going to be closely checked on this stuff and get penalised). You qualify to start and equal distance apart in that order AND (for me) the sckill or lack of it is a Huge part of the race itself. The Mental first lap dash to and run to the first corner is greatly dimished by rolling starts (only done a few - Rockingham), but not right in my book - yep might be saver - but if you want it real save - try cooking.

[COLIN STUBBS]

I totally agree. Iv only done one rolling start and running midfield I gunned it and everyone in front slowed down.....
Its just the way Im feeling at the moment but your right its the start that makes it.
When youv been hammered about like I was a week last Sunday cookery lessons do seem the sensible option but hey. I can live on beans on toast.

[Al Weyman]

And that wouldnt have happened with a roller Col.

[Robyn Slater]

A couple of points i'll make whilst sitting firmly on the fence.

It seems logical to me that cars approaching the first corner off a rolling start are traveling faster than off a standing start.They all want to be first into that corner.
How is this safer?

I would say the adrenaline level was pretty much the same for either type of start.

Personally, neither type of start would phase me. I ride classic scrambles (motocross). 30 bikes in a line into the first corner,get that wrong and it hurts!!

[zefarelly]

adrenaline levels are completely different in my experience, standing starts are great

although strictly the preserve of sprint races, theres no point for an hour + race

colin said "Maybe this is all down to education, at the briefing there was a lot of confusion about the rules"

I'm not sure, to my mind it merely highlights how many people don't pay attention and/or aren't intelligent enough to understand basic rules . . . its pretty f***ing basic as far as instruction goes . . . . should they be racing ? or put another way, is there a clerk in the land with testicles large enough to pull 10 cars in for a 30s stop go just to make the point !!!

[Al Weyman]

That may be true Zef but accidents like Colins startline one and the time I hit a similar Rover up the backside and wrote off his shell as he pulled across me avoiding a stalled car would have been avoided with a roller also its far more kinder on components I would have them everytime of a standing start.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Robyn Slater

I ride classic scrambles (motocross). 30 bikes in a line into the first corner,get that wrong and it hurts!!

Yes it does, and I had the tyre marks for weeks to prove it

[Al Weyman]

I also think it makes sure more cars get into the race without silly start line stalls or hot engines cutting out and refusing to fire back up.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

.....colin said "Maybe this is all down to education, at the briefing there was a lot of confusion about the rules"

I'm not sure, to my mind it merely highlights how many people don't pay attention and/or aren't intelligent enough to understand basic rules . . . its pretty f***ing basic as far as instruction goes . . . . should they be racing ? or put another way, is there a clerk in the land with testicles large enough to pull 10 cars in for a 30s stop go just to make the point !!!

Great post Zef !