Bayliss (and others): A mystery...

[DavidStHubbins]

[WARNING! Not an Aussie bash here]

Anyone have any thoughts on Troy Bayliss this year? The tv commentary here in Australia are being as diplomatic and kind as they can (Darryl Beattie doesn't even comment on it... Nor did Doohan last race) but Troy is having a stinker of a year! WHY? I honestly thought that the Honda ride was a real chance for him to show what he could do but he's been shocking. He was better on the Duke. What's more, Checa has been closer to Capirossi than Troy was. Consistently.

I see a trend here with WSBK riders who go to MotoGP and stink the place out (well not quite but anyway) compared to their hype and previous success elsewhere. Edwards is really struggling against Rossi, the same as he did against Gibernau and I did not expect that at all. I was a fan of him in WSBK and a fan of Bayliss and Haga (another stinker!) but it pains me to see them all performing so woefully compared to what we expect of them. It would be so cool to have all these stars performing as Rossi is seriously in need of some competition right now. It would be better racing too with Bayliss (who is a fantastic racer) and Edwards duking it out for the lead.

Bayliss is getting on in years now and this must be his last year right? I cannot see Camel keeping him if he continues like this.

What is the answer? He has not mentioned being on a lower spec than Barros and has been taking tips from Barros who has shadowed Troy around Sepang watching him. Barros helped him find 1.3 seconds!

I think someone mentioned that MotoGP bikes are stiffer and have less feel than WSBK's. Is it a case of old dogs not being able to learn new tricks? That does not explain Xaus who is also rather dismal this year and Hodgson who was poo.

Here is the list of WSBK stars who have failed so far in MotoGP. Not a race win between them in MotoGP...

Edwards
Bayliss
Haga
Xaus
Hodgson

I remember Bayliss at the end of last season being in the commentary booth with Darryl Beattie, Bill Woods, Mick Doohan and Bayliss had been sacked from Ducati. They were all moaning about the Spanish riders having all the sponsorship (true) and not being up to it. ("All the same old faces...") yet Checa has been quite good and Barros (Brazilian I know) is still able a few times a season compared to most. Bayliss then was talking about his riding style, similar to Edwards where they talk about "the front". Xaus is similar in needing the front planted.

Anyway, rant over. Any answers? Any hope?

[chunder]

I really am not sure about this one David and you raise a very valid point.
Troy was a match more often than not for Loris ion his first year on the Desmosedici, so go figure from that that he is a match for most other than maybe Max. Sete and Vale coz I rank Loris in the top 5 GP riders currently.
As far as the Honda is concerned, it is clear Troy does not get on with it as Colin didnt to be honest. THe reason here for me is this. Troy and Colin are not main Honda men, ie not Sete,Max or Nicky so if they ***** and moan about the front (a regular complaint about the RCV and NSR remember) then they are not going to get any new forks or yokes or whatever they need to sort, there is maybe an inherent vagueness of front feel in the RCV that is built into the bike.
HRC are not going to do what Kawasaki did and build the bike around Shinya, ie build it around Troy or Colin. They should hounoured to ride a factory Honda and if it don't work its their fault, that is how the Japanese work I think!
In Colin's defence, he is going very well I think on the M1, better than any of Vale's rivals have done on the same bike.
I dont rate Checa as a consistent perfomer, nor Barros who only shines when everything is perfect as does Max let face it.
Melandri is the suprise for me this year, he looks like a front end pusher yet still gets consistent results. If I was HRC I would maybe look at getting him and Sete on the best bikes and allowing them to shape the bikes future.
Sadly I think that they are looking to the dimunitive Pedrosa to push things forward when he he debuts next year.

[BootsOntheSide]

The overall standard in WSBK isn't as high as in MotoGP - 2002 was probably the strongest season in recent years. Bayliss took a very long time to reach the top echelons of motorcycling, and maybe a big bike like a Ducati suits him more than someone as diminuitive as Loris. Edwards has showed some potential, but beign teamed with Vale and then Seté is never going to be flattering. I think Xaus is very simialr to Melandri - he needs to find an easy-riding bike, a supportive team and a little more maturity, and then we'll see him as a front-runner.

[mac]

I don't really know what is going on.

Don't forget the Honda is dynamically a far different bike to anything he's ever ridden before - perhaps he is struggling to get his head around that.

I've got no doubt that on his day Bayliss is a match for anyone out there - bar Rossi. But his situation this year is baffling me.

[Wingman]

I think the Old Dog theory has some merit. Max being a good example, he has never got out of the 250 style that served him so well. The internal politics would have to play a big part as well. The pressure Troy must be feeling, knowing it's his last chance, would be hard to deal with, even with his laid back style. The great pity though, is that he will be remembered as failing in MotoGP, rather than being a World Champ after getting a ride by chance and only starting on bikes when he was 18.

[DavidStHubbins]

The first year promised so much... Annoying. I'm sure he is more annoyed though.

I was thinking the same as you today Wingman, that Troy might be remembered as much for his time in Motogp as in WSBK. I can understand why he is battling on this year because he might crack it yet but in all honesty I cannot see him in Motogp next season. I think his pride and reputation as well as his patience have taken too much of a battering. I'm sure he's earned enough money - considering he lives in Monaco - to walk away.

[chunder]

Agreed with Xaus, I think Tardozzi gave him a more relaxed approach eventually but he crashes every single weekend now and you ca see Herve getting more and more agitated, I mean it is not as if he is still learning. Colin hasnt been binning it at every opportuniity.
It has to be said though that both Elias this year and Melandri and Barros the year before had huge accidents on the M1 leaving them pretty much as rank outsiders. We know the M1 is hard to ride, but surely Vale's efforts have softened it up a bit!
As for Troy, get back to WSB or even better come and show everyone the wa home back in the UK. Think he might try AMA though, Hodgson and Bayliss would be a smart team, he has unfinished business there remember!

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally Posted by Wingman

The great pity though, is that he will be remembered as failing in MotoGP, rather than being a World Champ after getting a ride by chance and only starting on bikes when he was 18.

Yeah, it's a shame, same with Edwards. But I'll always remember them for the great racing they both gave us in World Superbikes.

I doubt either of them will go back to World Superbikes though - they left the series because they had nothing left to prove there and wanted a new challenge.

[racer69]

There is an article in Australian Motorcycle News which says that Bayliss is in MV Agusta's sights for their proposed World Superbike entry next year.

[BootsOntheSide]

He'd surely be the ideal man for that, if they can afford him.

[f1manoz]

Don't really know what to think of Bayliss' year on the Honda but it certainly hasn't been a great season for the Australian. Frankly, he hasn't been performing and I can't see him being retained unless results dramatically improve?

Nearly all the WSBK riders have struggled on the new bikes but it's not a new story, it seems to be the way it goes.

[racer69]

Everyone expected the transition to be easier from Superbike to MotoGP than it was with 500cc, but we are seeing the same difficulties that were experienced before.

Honda and Pons keep talking up Bayliss, but they have to don't they.

[chunder]

I think the change is not only in the speed of the bikes but it is a cultural change aswell.
GP is sooomuch more serious and there is much more money being spent so the guys have to spend more time with sponsors and technicicans, I think it is more of a job than WSB.
Remember how much Haga hated it and would rather tugg round on a WSB than be at the cutting edge of racing, fair play to him.
Also, we know that in relative terms a WSB bike is a road bike with all the inherent faults built in for marketing etc like the singles side swingarms on the 916 and RC45 and carbs on theold ZX7.
Aswell as tat they are easier to setup and ride and I think unless you have been used to that your whole racing career like Rossi or Sete or Max then it is harder to get the feel for the bike.
Look at guys like Nicky, Scott Russell, Slight, Bostrom. Very quick on road bikes but they slide it round and have a dirt track style. THat used to work in the 80s and 90s but not any more, you need the grounding in 125 and 250 to get the corner speed, then you need the experience on a GP bike to learn to spin it. And you are only gonna get that if you are proven in the other classes like Cadalora, Rossi, Max, Melandri. A WSB rider is thought of as knowinf how to ride a powerful bike, thus is not gonna get the same chances I think.
Shame, but pretty much designed into the championship. Oh and it also helps being spanish or Italian for some reason! Be interesting to see how long Xaus's career is being a Spaniard with good WSB experience!!

[Hazza]

Colin Edwards also said that because the Superbikes are so big and heavy you can haul 'em around alot on talent alone, where as with the GP bikes, if it's not working, it's not working. That, and "When I entered GP it was like playing golf and finding out the field was full of 20 Tiger Woods"

[Dani Filth]

he is absolutely right in the second remark . just look how many champions let alone race winners in different classes and championships we have in MotoGP ..

[gfm]

I'm very interested to read how you guys see MotoGP bikes as being so much more difficult to ride than other series bikes. Are the current bikes about as highly developed racing bikes ever then? Are they about as fast as they can get?

[Wingman]

Originally Posted by gfm

I'm very interested to read how you guys see MotoGP bikes as being so much more difficult to ride than other series bikes. Are the current bikes about as highly developed racing bikes ever then? Are they about as fast as they can get?

Obviously not, even God (Rossi) has said the bikes are getting too fast and is supporting the new rules. There was an article in an Aussie bike mag (AMCN) talking about the new rules, and how the 800cc engines could be revving up to 20000 RPM with pnuematic valves and such, this will make the bikes harder to ride, as they were in the 500 days. This will really sort the men from the boys, and make it even harder for the Superbike guys to adapt.

[chunder]

Its the same as F1 really isnt it, the manufactureres will push their limits. Who can r=forget the doubters that said 220 hp in a bike tyre wouldnt last 10 laps and the two strokes would win some races in the first year WRONG!!
The makers doing this, then pushes the tyre men forwatf aswell, did anyone hear the deal at Catalunya with Rossi, his race time was 43 seconds quicker than the year before, and ner enough every race nowthe guy is setting his fastest lap at the end of the race or on the last lap, unheard of in the past.
I have no problem with is to be honest, the likes of Honda and Yamaha will always find a way and I agree that a smaller capacity will be better, it push the power a bit firther up the rev range, making the engines more like 750's used to be and a bit more spinny, the problem now is that they have so much low down grunt they have all got maps se up to bring the power in smooth and such and it means the tyres can be looked after more.
I think it might be like when they introduced unleaded and it refined the S=screamer motor a lot more, negating the advanteg Mick wanted from using it