Race Marshal Manning Levels

[Apple]

As a newbie to marshaling and Tentenths
I fully expected that there would be sometimes when I would not be needed,
So there is no way I would be put off volunteering if I'm not needed for a particular event.
It seems from reading all of both threads that are now debating the exactly same subject that its the long serving marshals that are bickering and now going round in circles over this subject not us new boys.
I will go to any post I am allocated and learn all I can about my new hobby.
I may regret putting my head over the parapet but hay ho just a view of a newbie
Mick

[stephen0183]

Originally Posted by Apple

As a newbie to marshaling and Tentenths
I fully expected that there would be sometimes when I would not be needed,
So there is no way I would be put off volunteering if I'm not needed for a particular event.
It seems from reading all of both threads that are now debating the exactly same subject that its the long serving marshals that are bickering and now going round in circles over this subject not us new boys.
I will go to any post I am allocated and learn all I can about my new hobby.
I may regret putting my head over the parapet but hay ho just a view of a newbie

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Apple

As a newbie to marshaling and Tentenths
I fully expected that there would be sometimes when I would not be needed,
So there is no way I would be put off volunteering if I'm not needed for a particular event.
It seems from reading all of both threads that are now debating the exactly same subject that its the long serving marshals that are bickering and now going round in circles over this subject not us new boys.
I will go to any post I am allocated and learn all I can about my new hobby.
I may regret putting my head over the parapet but hay ho just a view of a newbie
Mick

you will find that most marshals will man any post and learn, we are all learners and teachers on post.

but i agree that this is a mute subject, that is until someone somewhere decides to set out to limit Marshalling numbers at the big events. then we can discuss the proposals and feed back through the proper channels

the problem is getting manning levels up at the smaller meets, the only solutions i can think of is marshals actually making the effort to attend these or for the clubs/circuits to ask themselves how we can get marshals to come and stand a post.

why should the MSA, circuits or marshalling clubs have to sort this out.
simple solutions are:- good racing, bigger grids, shorter races (who wants to be bored for hours with no rest) is part of the answer.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Apple

So there is no way I would be put off volunteering if I'm not needed for a particular event.
It seems from reading all of both threads that are now debating the exactly same subject that its the long serving marshals that are bickering and now going round in circles over this subject not us new boys.
I will go to any post I am allocated and learn all I can about my new hobby.

I really do hope it does come across as a debate, rather than bickering. There is problem, or at least a potential problem that is starting to crop up a little more often, and we are trying trying to figure out how we would like it resolved. All points of view are very welcome

Anyway, that's absolutely the right attitute...good marshaling. I really hope that this demonstrates to the people who are worried that marshals will 'leave' in droves if we have to start turning them down that that is unlikely to happen.

[Apple]

[QUOTE=Guinness2702;2788004]I really do hope it does come across as a debate, rather than bickering.


Since you asked
I am sorry to say that its getting that way

and I would like to duck down again now
Mick

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Apple

As a newbie to marshaling and Tentenths .. I will go to any post I am allocated and learn all I can about my new hobby.

And not just as a newbie. 20+ years in that's still my approach. The day I think I'm above all that is the day I'll stop doing it.

[The Fat Clerk]

Exactly

[HairyDJ]

Time for a new curve ball?

The MSA grading scheme does "require" attendance at a grade-relevant training course every 2 years as a minimum. First batch of "thanks, but no thanks" letters / emails should go to those who fail that test. Although this might seem to cut out very new folk, it will also address the more experienced folk who think / act as if they know more than enough and are above such training needs. Any marshal reading this now will have time to sort out a course before the new season, so fair to all

If the MSA don't have this information recorded already then, as they state that it is a requirement to maintain your grade, they bleeping well ought to get it sorted before the "training season" starts.

[Tall Chris]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Time for a new curve ball?

The MSA grading scheme does "require" attendance at a grade-relevant training course every 2 years as a minimum. First batch of "thanks, but no thanks" letters / emails should go to those who fail that test. Although this might seem to cut out very new folk, it will also address the more experienced folk who think / act as if they know more than enough and are above such training needs. Any marshal reading this now will have time to sort out a course before the new season, so fair to all

If the MSA don't have this information recorded already then, as they state that it is a requirement to maintain your grade, they bleeping well ought to get it sorted before the "training season" starts.

Just when it's getting fun you have to go and be sensible.

[Apple]

Originally Posted by Woolley

And not just as a newbie. 20+ years in that's still my approach. The day I think I'm above all that is the day I'll stop doing it.

Your right and I will take that approach in future

[gachjoel]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

Time for a new curve ball?

The MSA grading scheme does "require" attendance at a grade-relevant training course every 2 years as a minimum. First batch of "thanks, but no thanks" letters / emails should go to those who fail that test. Although this might seem to cut out very new folk, it will also address the more experienced folk who think / act as if they know more than enough and are above such training needs. Any marshal reading this now will have time to sort out a course before the new season, so fair to all

If the MSA don't have this information recorded already then, as they state that it is a requirement to maintain your grade, they bleeping well ought to get it sorted before the "training season" starts.

A curve ball to you curve ball....

for those who start out after the training period is over is not allowed to attend a big meeting..
but then people can argue what's the difference between a crash in a big meet compared to a club meet..

i say keep them as they are, it gives an great opportunity for trainee marshals
to be paired up with more experience

[Les Green]

Just a thought, could those with a number of years experience shed any light on how long there has been a problem with too many marshals at a particular event?

In view of the large number of recruits seen over the last few years (me included), could this just be a temporary 'blip'. As Marshalls get more experience of the different meetings,they may not wish to attend the 'high profile' meetings, prefering the other meetings which sometimes can be far more enjoyable.

[Stuart H]

Originally Posted by Les Green

Just a thought, could those with a number of years experience shed any light on how long there has been a problem with too many marshals at a particular event?

In view of the large number of recruits seen over the last few years (me included), could this just be a temporary 'blip'. As Marshalls get more experience of the different meetings,they may not wish to attend the 'high profile' meetings, prefering the other meetings which sometimes can be far more enjoyable.

Thats why i gave up doing the btcc years ago.
i find that club meetings are a lot more fun!!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

The MSA grading scheme does "require" attendance at a grade-relevant training course every 2 years as a minimum...

If the MSA don't have this information recorded already then, as they state that it is a requirement to maintain your grade, they bleeping well ought to get it sorted before the "training season" starts.

Interestingly, my incident training is usually done on hillclimb sessions. Very good ones they are with proper incident handling, fire training etc. But that grade doesn't count at the MSA so technically I haven't done any training for my grade for years, even though clearly I have.

Originally Posted by Les Green

As Marshalls get more experience of the different meetings,they may not wish to attend the 'high profile' meetings, prefering the other meetings which sometimes can be far more enjoyable.

That's certainly been my experience. I do still turn out for big sportscar meetings because I love endurance racing, and I try to get to at least one F3 event each year to see the up-and-coming drivers, but apart from that I'd rather have a good clubbie any day. I simply avoid BTCC and stopped doing the GP after I slept through the last one I was at - standing up!

[Les Green]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I'd rather have a good clubbie any day. I simply avoid BTCC and stopped doing the GP after I slept through the last one I was at - standing up!

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by HairyDJ

The MSA grading scheme does "require" attendance at a grade-relevant training course every 2 years as a minimum.

If the MSA don't have this information recorded already then, as they state that it is a requirement to maintain your grade, they bleeping well ought to get it sorted before the "training season" starts.

ok, this is going to stir things up, but I don't care cos when I marshal these days, enough people know me and my abilities that grading doesn't matter, but.............

5 yrs ago my MSA registration card arrived with a surprise;

Incident Marshal and Flag Marshal grades. funny that..........

I had done ONE training day (for Flags) in the previous 2 or 3 yrs. Ok, I normally flag, so maybe that's where it came from. BUT.................

since then, I have attended the sum total of 0, NONE, not even close to 1, training days and yet my new registration card, that arrived today, has me as Experienced Marshal (Race).
My clubs are also listed:
B.A.R.C (Head Office)
British Motor Racing Marshals.

I am not a member of either!!


and some of you want to use the MSA and their database to decide who does/does not attend any meetings?

all of the above PROVES that the database is incorrect/at fault, and as such, cannot be trusted. much the same as when I used to be a Chief Marshal. All of a sudden (around 1998), I realised that grading badges meant nothing. I'd see a Red badge person standing in front of me at sign-on, but would know that they'd never even attended a fire, much less put one out! And I was supposed to allocate on the strength of grades. I think not.

this whole thread has actually highlighted a more basic point;

there is no such thing as too many marshals, what there is, is too many marshals either in the same place or in the wrong place. Both of these would not have occured when I started marshalling as the Observer and Incident Officer ( I use those terms on purpose) would decide between them as to how many marshals would stand where, do what, and when to do it. If that meant that some marshals had to stand-down for a session or two, then so be it.

In other words, the Chief marshal did not have to worry about numbers as he/she could trust the people in charge of each post to allocate safely, efficiently and politely.

Unlike today, where even an on-post briefing is now accepted as the exception rather than the norm.

Where have all the marshals gone? I see lots of spectators in orange but so few MARSHALS these days.

and, before you all berate my words or me...........

ask yourself this question;

Have I ever been stood somewhere, whilst in orange, that I either felt unsafe or doing nothing?

If the answer is Yes, then either you are at fault for not raising the issue/moving or your "leadership" on-post failed.

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

ask yourself this question;

Have I ever been stood somewhere, whilst in orange, that I either felt unsafe or doing nothing?

If the answer is Yes, then either you are at fault for not raising the issue/moving or your "leadership" on-post failed.

the answer is YES on both counts on separate occasions, and yes i did do something about it. but these incidents have not and will not put me off marshalling, just makes me a better marshal by learning from these times.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

..............

Have I ever been stood somewhere, whilst in orange, that I either felt unsafe or doing nothing?

If the answer is Yes, then either you are at fault for not raising the issue/moving or your "leadership" on-post failed.

I am not sure what the "doing nothing" means ....... many times I know there will be marshals stood waiting to react to something should it happen who then find they have had nothing to react to for a whole day, if this is doing nothing then that simply isn't true. There are always the other tasks like track checking between sessions, looking out for errant cars/drivers during racing etc and the mere fact that you are trackside prepared for something should it happen even if nothing does for a whole day is just one of the (important) factors of marshalling life - sometimes cars/drivers do as they are supposed to when racing ie they keep going, they stay on the track and don't have incidents

[Sparky-steve]

Originally Posted by deley

I am not sure what the "doing nothing" means ....... many times I know there will be marshals stood waiting to react to something should it happen who then find they have had nothing to react to for a whole day, if this is doing nothing then that simply isn't true. There are always the other tasks like track checking between sessions, looking out for errant cars/drivers during racing etc and the mere fact that you are trackside prepared for something should it happen even if nothing does for a whole day is just one of the (important) factors of Marshalling life - sometimes cars/drivers do as they are supposed to when racing IE they keep going, they stay on the track and don't have incidents

you do have a point there, doing nothing as in having no incidents to deal with, isn't that a good thing? i marshal to watch the racing at close quarters, but the price is working to keep the track/drivers/spec's/ and of course, marshals safe..which of course is also a good reason to be there.
anyway a good days racing means no incidents just good racing..discuss

[Ubique]

Ok so I've ben reading this for a while and many of the ideas to select who gets to do a particular meeting and who doesn't simply won't work. Using the MSA data base would be daft as like many have said they get things wrong, for example they still thought I lived in Cyprus 5 years after me telling them I was back in the UK even though I had been selected for the BGP on each year of that period and had my passes sent to a UK address and this week my new licence arrived saying I was an Experienced marshal closely followed (3 days later) by another licence with my correct grade (IO) on.
To use training days is also flawed as like a few others it's been a while since I last did an official training day, however as a member of the emergency services the MSA have told me that my experience of incident handling, fire fighting and first aid in my day job is above that provided by any club training.
And as for the points systems mooted, well don't get me started on those! To say that someone must do clubbies to get to do popular meetings is just a load of cobblers! I have done more than my fair share of clubbies over the years and on the whole enjoy them but as my job means my weekends off are a lot fewer and farther between than they used to be I have to make a choice between doing a clubby that has no real intrest for me or doing a championship I love like the BTCC. The choice is a simple one the BTCC wins on most occassions (unless there is someting good on at Dono like Masters or 750MC).
This situation of too many marshals has only really been an issue this season and in my opinion will calm down when the hoards start to find other meetings they enjoy as in the past I've known guys that got into marshaling for F1/BTCC and now only do HSCC/VSCC meetings because they enjoy them more. Basically if you don't want to go to a popular meeting you don't have to and can go else where and I'm sure will be welcomed with open arms. If you do want to do the popular meeting well you will just have to get used to the fact that occassionally you will be unlucky and miss out simples!

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Stuart Hill

;

there is no such thing as too many marshals, what there is, is too many marshals either in the same place or in the wrong place. Both of these would not have occured when I started marshalling as the Observer and Incident Officer ( I use those terms on purpose) would decide between them as to how many marshals would stand where, do what, and when to do it. If that meant that some marshals had to stand-down for a session or two, then so be it.

Have I ever been stood somewhere, whilst in orange, that I either felt unsafe or doing nothing?

If the answer is Yes, then either you are at fault for not raising the issue/moving or your "leadership" on-post failed.

If marshals have to stand down for a session or two, then you have too many marshals!!
If you have a situation when a car comes off and the first valuable seconds are wasted by people deciding who is actually going to go to the incident, then you have too many marshals!!
If you have 7 people pushing a car back on to a live circuit, then you have too many marshals!!
If, god forbid, a car leaves the circuit and ploughs through a group of people all trying to get out of each others' way, then you have too many marshals!!.

[numbersix]

I am holding you entirely responsible for this insane hornets' nest of a thread, Mr Brand. You should have known better at your age.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by White flag man

If marshals have to stand down for a session or two, then you have too many marshals!!

mm Training??

Originally Posted by White flag man

If you have a situation when a car comes off and the first valuable seconds are wasted by people deciding who is actually going to go to the incident, then you have too many marshals!!

On-Post Briefing/Leadership?

Originally Posted by White flag man

If you have 7 people pushing a car back on to a live circuit, then you have too many marshals!!

depends on the car/location/situation....and leadership?

Originally Posted by White flag man

If, god forbid, a car leaves the circuit and ploughs through a group of people all trying to get out of each others' way, then you have too many marshals!!.

P/C and I/O fail to allocate safely?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I am holding you entirely responsible for this insane hornets' nest of a thread, Mr Brand. You should have known better at your age.

Mr Brand has only been able to survive all these years by "Never doing nothing" whilst at a race meeting. If all else failed, he still learnt, taught and continues to do so.
keep it up sir.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Sparky-steve

i marshal to watch the racing at close quarters, but the price is working to keep the track/drivers/spec's/ and of course, marshals safe..which of course is also a good reason to be there.

Curiously, I marshal for exactly the opposite reason. I never want someone to have an incident which damages their car or worse, themselves, but the satisfaction of being able to do something to help them in their need is what keeps me coming back. Better still, being able to get a car back out there so they can enjoy their racing and so that the action keeps up for the spectators is pleasing, or waving flags so as to be helpful to someone. Spectating is far down the list, and in fact I've lost the ability to do so as I discovered last time I was the other side of the fence.