UK spectator safety questions

[Gingertom]

Hi, I am writing a feature about spectator safety at UK motorsport events for my journalism degree and I'd be really grateful if some of you could take a couple of minutes to answer a few brief questions:

1. When attending any motorsport event (track, rally, etc) do you feel adequately protected as a spectator?

2. What more measures do you think could be taken to further protect spectators from on-track incidents?

3. Would further safety measures spoil your enjoyment of watching the racing?

4. Is it a good thing that motorsport has a reputation for danger, even for spectators? Is that part of the attraction?

5. Have you ever been injured yourself, or witnessed someone else being injured, at a motorsport event? If so, what happened and how did you feel?

If you happen to have any pictures that you have taken of any incidents like this and you wouldn't mind me using them (I will credit you as the owner of them) that would also be a great help.

Thanks.

[tristancliffe]

1. I feel over protected, and wish they'd get rid of some of the debris fencing.
2. Stop selling tickets and lock the gates. Or slow down the racing to safe road speeds.
3. Very much so
4. Very much so. When motorsport becomes a risk free environment, it will be dull and driving standards will fall even further. Some of that risk has to pass onto the spectators, as they want to be within visual distance of said fast, dangerous cars.
5. I've seen people that were hit by gravel from a gravel trap doing its job. I think they said 'ouch' and stood somewhere else for the rest of the day. No pics though...

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the spectators should be at track level with just 3 hay bales between the cars and them - that's ludicrous. But if you stop them from watching at dangerous corners (which is where people want to watch from - nobody watches at boring easy corners), or if you insist on putting so much fencing in the way that they can't actually see, or if you have the spectator banks so far away they can't see any detail then they might as well not bother watching.

Some circuits - e.g. Mallory - have spectator banking very high up near the track, in the hope that cars/debris are less likely to get that much altitude. They're probably right - it could happen, but you have to accept some risks at some point.

[Hubble]

1. I too feel over protected. I'm of reasonable intelligence, and I think I can work out where it's safe to stand and where not. I'm willing to take the risk I may be wrong. Agree with post above, get rid of some of the debris fencing - it's intrusive and detracts from my enjoyment of the sport
2. It doesn't need and more measures. If people want to feel safer they should stay at home and watch it on TV
3. Yes
4. Yes and yes. I like the unpredictability of watching cars/bikes hurtling round at high speed in close proximity to each other. Incidents are an inevitable consequence of this sometimes, and we have to allow for that. I would rather watch a closely fought race where nobody clashed or crashed than one where cars were off into the tyres/gravel all the time (this tends to slow the racing)
5. Never been injured myself, but I have seen others seriously injured at events. I don't go there to see people get hurt, so I feel bad for them, but it doesn't affect me. I sleep OK at night afterwards, it's all part of the sport, and I accept that and move on

I'll see if I can dig out some of my incident images for you.....

[mickey29]

1. When attending any motorsport event (track, rally, etc) do you feel adequately protected as a spectator?
As people have said, i am over protected, as is typical in today's risk adverse world.
2. What more measures do you think could be taken to further protect spectators from on-track incidents?
None, just educate people that a race without risk is a not racing, it is a Sunday drive
3. Would further safety measures spoil your enjoyment of watching the racing?
Yes
4. Is it a good thing that motorsport has a reputation for danger, even for spectators? Is that part of the attraction?
Yes
5. Have you ever been injured yourself, or witnessed someone else being injured, at a motorsport event? If so, what happened and how did you feel?
No, however nobody forces us to be at an event, I take my children to events and I feel very safe and secure. I do not put us in a dangerous place, I do not go where I am not supposed to be.

[mattsmith]

Originally Posted by Gingertom

Hi, I am writing a feature about spectator safety at UK motorsport events for my journalism degree and I'd be really grateful if some of you could take a couple of minutes to answer a few brief questions:

1. When attending any motorsport event (track, rally, etc) do you feel adequately protected as a spectator?

2. What more measures do you think could be taken to further protect spectators from on-track incidents?

3. Would further safety measures spoil your enjoyment of watching the racing?

4. Is it a good thing that motorsport has a reputation for danger, even for spectators? Is that part of the attraction?

5. Have you ever been injured yourself, or witnessed someone else being injured, at a motorsport event? If so, what happened and how did you feel?

If you happen to have any pictures that you have taken of any incidents like this and you wouldn't mind me using them (I will credit you as the owner of them) that would also be a great help.

Thanks.

1. This very much depends on the track. I chose to watch from places where there is a good chance of being safe. The majority of tracks have adequate protection of areas that the majority of spectators use.

2. Very little extra needs to be done in my opinion. I think that some of the more risky areas should be closed off when larger crowds are expected to reduce the chances of someone being there in the unlikely situation that a crash happens. I'm really thinking of areas like Paddock Hill behind the vehicle gate where the MR2 ended up at Brands Hatch and directly along the barriers on the unfenced straights at Castle Combe.

3. It again depends on the measures. Extra fencing would be annoying but not the end of the world. Moving spectators four miles away for the track like at some F1 tracks would be bad. Building a very high wall all the way around the track would make it safe but kill off spectating.

4. It's probably not good but the danger isn't as bad as the reputation makes out. Spectator deaths are rare (I can't remember the last one. Does anyone know when?)

5. The only injury I've seen at circuits is people twisting ankles when they slip down spectator banks (Especially drivers girlfriends in high heels ). Most of the big accidents I've seen have been contained by fencing or in areas where people don't usually stand.

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally Posted by mattsmith

4. It's probably not good but the danger isn't as bad as the reputation makes out. Spectator deaths are rare (I can't remember the last one. Does anyone know when?)

happens quite rarely at tracks

Santa Pod 2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7039664.stm

Before that, the last one I can think of at a race track, Donington 1990, McNish's F3000 went over the wall into the infield.
Which is on video - on the web- but since it shows a death you'll have to do your own search to find it

[terence]

How much more 'safety' could be incorporated into uk circuits? Seem's a very strange project to be involved in,I would suggest going along to perhaps Silverstone to take a long hard look at what 'safety measures' can do to a circuit

[jonbryant]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

happens quite rarely at tracks

Santa Pod 2006
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7039664.stm

Before that, the last one I can think of at a race track, Donington 1990, McNish's F3000 went over the wall into the infield.
Which is on video - on the web- but since it shows a death you'll have to do your own search to find it

I seem to recall someone being killed in the crowd from a wheel off a TVR Tuscan at Combe since the McNish crash?

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by jonbryant

I seem to recall someone being killed in the crowd from a wheel off a TVR Tuscan at Combe since the McNish crash?

Lee Noble in 1998....

[dusty]

1. When attending any motorsport event (track, rally, etc) do you feel adequately protected as a spectator?

Yes. Over protected more than underprotected.

2. What more measures do you think could be taken to further protect spectators from on-track incidents?

None. The chances of getting hit by debris etc I feel is small and given that crowds at the vast majority of motor racing events in this country are small there is always ample room to avoid anything getting flung at you.

3. Would further safety measures spoil your enjoyment of watching the racing?

Yes. Some of my favourite viewing spots have been ruined by catch fencing. I voted with my wallet and no longer go to those circuits.

4. Is it a good thing that motorsport has a reputation for danger, even for spectators? Is that part of the attraction?

No one wants to see anyone hurt, but motorsport is a fast and exiting sport. It is dangerous, it says so on the ticket. Take that away and we might as well watch people playing Sega Rally.

5. Have you ever been injured yourself, or witnessed someone else being injured, at a motorsport event? If so, what happened and how did you feel?

I have seen people get hurt and have always felt that it was their choice to participate and they knew the risks. The attraction of motorsport is the risk, ask a child why he climbs a tree or balances on a wall, it is the human need for exitement that drives us on. A racing driver balances a car on the edge, it is what makes him a driver and me a spectator, he does what I cannot and I enjoy watching him do what I am unable to do.

[terence]

Could I respectfully suggest a study into 'Paddock Safety' for pedestrians.Far more of an issue with errant children flying about on Scooters,Pushbikes etc etc.
An incident on Sunday brought this to mind, fortunately the pedestrian involved was not someone's grand mother of advancing years.Had that have been the case,the outcome could have been so much different,in which case,there would perhaps be more policing of what the final instructions ask of Participating Drivers.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Could I respectfully suggest a study into 'Paddock Safety' for pedestrians.Far more of an issue with errant children flying about on Scooters,Pushbikes etc etc.
An incident on Sunday brought this to mind, fortunately the pedestrian involved was not someone's grand mother of advancing years.Had that have been the case,the outcome could have been so much different,in which case,there would perhaps be more policing of what the final instructions ask of Participating Drivers.

*Piglet climbs up onto soapbox* I can't tell you how much abuse I've received over the years from drivers and their teams/families when trying to moderate their behaviour in the paddocks. I've seen people with two year olds perched on the front of quad bikes, I've seen five year olds being allowed to ride quad bikes in public areas - obviously no helmets or body protection being used, I've spoken to parents about out of control kids on bikes and scooters, you name it I've done it - almost without fail when challenged people are rude (and I'm very nice about how I do it!) - I suspect people just get defensive when their child care skills are called to account.

We have few assembly and paddock marshals these days so there are fewer marshals around to deal with these things and as inevitably getting involved means receiving abuse I can see why those marshals who are trying to do other things to keep race meetings on schedule would avoid getting involved.

It would be a lot easier if parents kept their own children under control and if within series paddocks, these issues were taken more seriously internally rather than it being something else for organisers to deal with.

*can someone help me down?*

[terence]

Well put Piglet,the problems will arrise one day in the future no doubt.Not an issue that can be ignored I'm afraid ! In our world of litigation for the smallest of things [see Greed] the potential 'fall out' could be a very serious situation for Organising Clubs/ Circuit Owners alike.

[midgetman]

Piglet you're right. My son wanted to take his MTB to Combe on Monday but I told him it was inappropriate. he sulked, but he got over it. Adults should realise their kids don't have a divine right to do what they want in areas where there are lots of people and expensive cars.

Back to the original thread:

It's about right in most places I've been to recently, except Silverstone which goes over the top because of its F1 status. I wouldn't spectate from Chippenham Road car park at Combe, and feel a touch vulnerable watching at the Esses at Mallory. To say that if there's small crowds you could run away is a bit daft, because you can't out-run bits of car coming at you at 50mph+!

Can't say I'd be delighted to stand alongside a rally stage with cars cartwheeling through the undergrowth, ISTR there have been more spectator deaths than drivers, wasn't there one in Ireland only a year or so back?

I don't necessarliy agree that personal risk is part of the excitement for a spectator, there's no need for us as watchers to be put to any risk. It wouldn't take much for 1955 Le Mans to happen all over again if the circuits don't do their bit. And the world is a very different place now, there would be massive calls for racing to shut down if we started hurting speccies!

[graeme]

It does say "Motor racing is dangerous" on the ticket, but I don't think the casual spectator sometimes realises this. I figured it out fairly quickly when a Fiesta landed a few feet from me (although other side of the fencing) at Oulton many years ago. I've seen people stay standing watching an accident, obilivious to the fact that it could hit them (particularly on pitwalls where lots of people spectate at club races, rather than actually do something useful).

[ascarmarshal]

I have never felt unsafe whilst either marshalling ( I am on the inactive list for the time being) or spectating at circuits.

I can see and understand what Piglet is saying. My late mother was a senior paddock/ assembly marshal at Brands and Rockingham and on one occasion asked (nicely) some parents to keep their children under control in the paddock and was reported to Race Control for abusing her position!!!!!

Going back to the OP, accidents happen and ,sometimes, spectators get hit by debris and even more rarely cars go into the spectator area. There are warnings on the back of all tickets, in the programmes and round the circuits say that motor sport can be dangerous and you are present at YOUR OWN RISK. Every accident is different and you can't have 100% safety. All we can do is learn from the incidents that do happen.

[dusty]

It's about right in most places I've been to recently, except Silverstone which goes over the top because of its F1 status. I wouldn't spectate from Chippenham Road car park at Combe, and feel a touch vulnerable watching at the Esses at Mallory. To say that if there's small crowds you could run away is a bit daft, because you can't out-run bits of car coming at you at 50mph+!


Can I just reply to that! I worded it very badly ( I am from oop north so english is not my first language....!)

When I spoke of feeling safer because of smaller crowd numbers, I was really refering to the major disaster scenario of a car into the crowd. fewer spectators means less likelehood of anyone being hit by anything, as opposed to something flying into a packed crowd.

Silverstone is one circuit I no longer attend due to poor viewing areas. I like the being able to see the drivers working hard at the wheel. ( Although to be fair I have not been to Silverstone since 98 (IIRC) when I was unhappy to be charged £5 to sit on a plastic potty at Abbey hairpin!)

Mallory is a great viewing circuit and the Esses has a large section of catch fencing now, But I agree that this was always a bit too hairy to stand for me.

[dusty]

re-reading my post above I realise I am contradicting myself

I feel that I have more chance of moving out of harms way in the highly unlikely event of a car or large debris landing in a spectator area if I am not surrounded by large and closely packed crowd.( I have been spectating for around 30 years now and have never seen anything larger than gravel enter a spectator area.) I always stand when watching racing ( apart from grandstands) and never have anything directly behind me. The risk to marshalls is higher, but again it is a highly unlikely scenario and marshalls ( I am sure ) are trained to keep their eyes on the track and also ensure they have an escape route.

The risk at any motorsport event is self apparent. An accident can happen anywhere and be caused by driver error or mechanical failure so there is never going to be a zero risk of anything happening. The safety measures at british circuits seems adequate to me to minimise the risk so I feel no worries about attending a race meeting in this country.

[ngdragon]

banking before the club chicane at Thruxton is the most dangerous place I can think of- potential for very high speed accidents as the cars brake. I witnessed Bruce Jouanny's F3 accident in 2001 when he flew over the catch fencing, hit the spectator bank and ended up in the bushes behind, That race was late on a Saturday evening and there were few spectators on the bank- if it had happened the sunday there could have been carnage. The police spent a lot of time that evening examining the track from the air and the ground- British motor sport was very lucky that day.

[Lin1876]

I should point out that the only track I've been to is Knockhill, so anything I say is based on my experiences there.

1. When attending any motorsport event (track, rally, etc) do you feel adequately protected as a spectator?

Yes. Not over protected, but I've never felt in any danger even when I've seen some large accidents happen.

2. What more measures do you think could be taken to further protect spectators from on-track incidents?

Not much more without ruining viewing/photographing opportunities.

3. Would further safety measures spoil your enjoyment of watching the racing?

Yes.

4. Is it a good thing that motorsport has a reputation for danger, even for spectators? Is that part of the attraction?

No. Spectators should be kept out of harm's way where possible, as it's bad enough for drivers to be hurt so long as spectators (particularly families) are safe.

5. Have you ever been injured yourself, or witnessed someone else being injured, at a motorsport event? If so, what happened and how did you feel?

I saw a photographer get hurt, although it was just some bruises.

[Gingertom]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who commented. The general consensus amongst people I have asked seems to be that there is too much protection and that most spectators would be smart enough to work out where was safe to stand.

[The SpeCTator]

The most dangerous part of Motorsport is the journey to the track, you are far more likely to be injured and there will not be a marshal, medic, ambulance 30 seconds away

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Gingertom

and that most spectators would be smart enough to work out where was safe to stand.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. TBH there is nowhere "safe" to stand adjacent to a race track. My mum first took me racing when I was around 7 years of age, the first thing I learned about motorsport was NEVER turn your back on the track. Motorsport is always dangerous and the danger doesn't always come from the place that you think it will.

[Matt Hunter]

1. Yes but in some locations over rotected to the point where my enjoyment of the event is ruined due to the need for binoculars!
2. On the whole I don't think more measures are needed in terms of track safety. If anything, work on technical aspects of the vehicles such as wheel tethers should be advanced. In the end it says on the ticket that motorsport is dangerous and that ought to be sufficient.
3. Yes. Just look at the over sanitised Tilke-dromes. Spectators are miles away from the action and it reduces the sense of speed and theatre.
4. Yes. Speed is inherantly dangerous and risky. This doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. It is a massive shame that we live in such a H+S based society.
5. Never been injured or seen an injury to spectators at an event.

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'm not sure I'd agree with this. TBH there is nowhere "safe" to stand adjacent to a race track. My mum first took me racing when I was around 7 years of age, the first thing I learned about motorsport was NEVER turn your back on the track. Motorsport is always dangerous and the danger doesn't always come from the place that you think it will.

But the same is true of life in general......think of all the people that have been quietly sitting at home watching TV only to have a car/bus/truck come through the wall into their house.....

I feel as safe at a race track as I do anywhere else, perhaps even more so as there is (usually) catch fencing/barriers between me and any impending doom. You don't generally have that luxury walking to the shops, and at least in the main competitors on a race track will be concentrating on what they are doing, not playing with their stereo, chatting on the phone or trying to control wayward children....