Audi R10

[davyboy]

Ya that's right, I know about Toyota's projected involvement in NASCAR. My problem's not just with that Audi, its with diesels in racing. Diesel engines are not as performant as gasoline and at top level racing I don't believe they should be used.
As mentioned previously 'going green' in racing makes no sense as at all because the level of pollution generated by staging the event [logistics, flights etc...] far outweighs a manufacturer's feigning at being eco-friendly.
Sorry, I'm a purist I'm afraid. Leave diesels in tractors and electric motors in hair dryers

[The Badger]

And they havent even installed traction control on the beast yet !!!

Boring car in my opinion and i suggest getting used to hearing about the R10 doing all the winning again .

Wish it would stay away , whose going to compete against them ?

Whats next , the solar powered woosh of the R11 ..... might have to start watching F1 if that happened , god forbid at least ya can hear'em !!!

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by The Badger

And they havent even installed traction control on the beast yet !!!

Boring car in my opinion and i suggest getting used to hearing about the R10 doing all the winning again .

Wish it would stay away , whose going to compete against them ?

Without the Audi at Sebring the race would have been won by either a LMP2 or GT1, how is that good for the ALMS.

Audi have risen to the challange, taken a fuel that many think is less performant and won. Hats off to them.

Its far to early to write of the other teams. some have cars not yet on the track (Peugeot) and the others have only just taken delivery of there cars. where as the Audi has been testing for quite a while.

BTW, ITS UP TO THE OTHERS TO RAISE THERE GAME, NOT AUDI TO SLOW DOWN

[davyboy]

P1 is poorly supported from a manufacturers perspective so its predominantly privateers who have no way near Audi's resources. Its stealing candy from a baby. Let's see Audi pick on someone their own size in another formula where there's manufacturer against manufacturer competition. If Audi do turn out to wipe the floor with that tractor this year, you'll find a lot of fans turning their back on the ALMS.

[gwyllion]

I think after some Audi-Peugeot battles in 2007/2008, ACO will change the regulations to take away the diesel advantages (more power and higher fuel economy).

[davyboy]

Hopefully they do an MC12 on it now. I've had enough of it after Sebring.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

Yes, but you're looking at it from the European point of view. No one I know buys cars in the UK because of whether or not the race cars win races. But in the US they do. Look at NASCAR as the biggest example (albeit not the only one) with the brand loyalty of fans.

American marketing people know that racing draws the people who will buy cars based on racing pedigree. Why do you think Audi's long term race commitments have been focused on the ALMS and not the LMS? The only place Audi make a really big push in Europe is Le Mans. But they sponsor things left, right and centre in the US.

There are different attitudes to the marketing from the people buying the prouct in Europe and the US. Green technology is big in the US at present, so the diesel Audi is going to make big splashes to US car buyers. We've known diesels can be quick as well as economical for years in Europe.

R8R is RIGHT ON the mark in his assessment of why Audi are trying to win big from a marketing standpoint with a blindingly fast and quiet diesel. If they can convince Americans that going diesel is the way to energy independence (read: biodiesel), I think we'd all agree the world could be a better and less volatile place. The only exposure most Americans have had to diesel cars in the past was from pre-1980 abominations with were noisy, foul-smelling, and slow. I know it's being done for commercial reasons, but more power to Audi in spreading the word...great fun to watch, too - I just came from Sebring, where I was hugely disappointed by the Porsche-Penske effort - One has to believe they'll get it sorted quickly, though.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Hopefully they do an MC12 on it now. I've had enough of it after Sebring.

The R10 is completely built according to the ACO regulations. Of course where the ACO got the restrictor size for diesel engines may be another question. The restrictors and tank capacity can of course be changed in the next years to make the LMP field more equal.

[Audi R8R]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Diesel engines are not as performant as gasoline and at top level racing I don't believe they should be used.

Oh I don't know, a 1m 45s lap around Sebring (whereas the nearest petrol car was 2 seconds a lap slower) seems fairly performant to me...

What are you looking for in your engine, noise?

[vollpower]

Originally Posted by Nordic

BTW, ITS UP TO THE OTHERS TO RAISE THERE GAME, NOT AUDI TO SLOW DOWN

BTW , I AM FULLY AWARE OF THAT ..... But i still dont like the sound and that is my opinion .

Just as it is in LMP2 , Porsche have done it correctly and shown others how it should be done . Its just a shame , cuz others will have big troubles trying to get to grips with them ..... and thats not good for any championship .

I certainly dont see any trouble with a Corvette or an LMP2 winning a race overall ..... accidents and unforseen circumstances do happen .

I was delighted to see a 911 GT3 RS winning Daytona for example

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

Oh I don't know, a 1m 45s lap around Sebring (whereas the nearest petrol car was 2 seconds a lap slower) seems fairly performant to me...

What are you looking for in your engine, noise?

That would be an intelligent post there m8 if you hadn't totally ignored the blatent rule fixing by the ACO, to all but hand Sebring and Le Mans to Audi on a plate!

Let me remind you...

1) Larger restrictor
2) Larger refueling nozzle
3) Minimum weight raised to 925kg because of as yet, the Non existant LMP Coupe's with Air Con.

If Diesel's can compete with Petrol on a level playing field then I'm all for them, but as yet I can't see how the rules are fair.

The ACO have just spent these past few years changing the LMP reg's in order to check the ever faster speeds of the cars by increasing Drag etc, etc. Only then to issue some Diesel LMP regulations that allows the creation of the R10 monster that eats up Sebring in a record 1 min 45 seconds!

Somebody plz explain the sense in that!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by vollpower

BTW , I AM FULLY AWARE OF THAT ..... But i still dont like the sound and that is my opinion .

Just as it is in LMP2 , Porsche have done it correctly and shown others how it should be done . Its just a shame , cuz others will have big troubles trying to get to grips with them ..... and thats not good for any championship .

I certainly dont see any trouble with a Corvette or an LMP2 winning a race overall ..... accidents and unforseen circumstances do happen .

I was delighted to see a 911 GT3 RS winning Daytona for example

Remind me who won LMP2 against the unbeatable Penske Porsches?

That's right, Intersport.

Maybe they should have listened to the doom and gloom merchants and handed in the towel before the race?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

That would be an intelligent post there m8 if you hadn't totally ignored the blatent rule fixing by the ACO, to all but hand Sebring and Le Mans to Audi on a plate!

Let me remind you...

1) Larger restrictor
2) Larger refueling nozzle
3) Minimum weight raised to 925kg because of as yet, the Non existant LMP Coupe's with Air Con.

If Diesel's can compete with Petrol on a level playing field then I'm all for them, but as yet I can't see how the rules are fair.

The ACO have just spent these past few years changing the LMP reg's in order to check the ever faster speeds of the cars by increasing Drag etc, etc. Only then to issue some Diesel LMP regulations that allows the creation of the R10 monster that eats up Sebring in a record 1 min 45 seconds!

Somebody plz explain the sense in that!

A petrol LMP1 should be equally competitive on ultimate pace.

How can people criticize the ACO when the Audi has yet to come up against a fully sorted P1 and has potentially opened the floodgates for alternative powered cars in years to come?

Lets face it, the best P2 wasn't that far behind Audi!

BTW, the new regs were not to slow the cars, but stop the aero instability,

[JAG]

Originally Posted by davyboy

P1 is poorly supported from a manufacturers perspective so its predominantly privateers who have no way near Audi's resources. Its stealing candy from a baby. Let's see Audi pick on someone their own size in another formula where there's manufacturer against manufacturer competition. If Audi do turn out to wipe the floor with that tractor this year, you'll find a lot of fans turning their back on the ALMS.

How many poles did Dyson win against Champion Audi last year?

Audi will be up against Porsche and Peugeot P1's in the next couple of years, they can't rest on their laurels.

We havent even seen the potential of the Zytek, Creation, Courage LC70, Lola etc.

It's the start of a new era. The P1 competitiom is about to step up.

When the R8 hit the scene in 1999 LMP900/GT1's were departing the scene.

[Audi R8R]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

That would be an intelligent post there m8 if you hadn't totally ignored the blatent rule fixing by the ACO, to all but hand Sebring and Le Mans to Audi on a plate!

How can it be blatant rule fixing, when the ACO (or any other race organiser come to that) didn't have any data to work from with regards to racing diesel performance. If you go from the results by the Tracksport Diesel at Le Mans there's no question why they'd set the bar that high.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

1) Larger restrictor
2) Larger refueling nozzle
3) Minimum weight raised to 925kg because of as yet, the Non existant LMP Coupe's with Air Con.

The aircon regs are actually designed for the GT1 cars, but have been introduced across the board in an effort to allow the design on closed top LMP's at a later date. And Audi managed to get the R10 down to the base weight anyway, even with an engine that could have put them well over the limit. 10/10 for engineering work. Especially when other LMPs have come in as too heavy. That can be taken care of in the design phase, its not difficult.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

If Diesel's can compete with Petrol on a level playing field then I'm all for them, but as yet I can't see how the rules are fair.

The ACO have just spent these past few years changing the LMP reg's in order to check the ever faster speeds of the cars by increasing Drag etc, etc. Only then to issue some Diesel LMP regulations that allows the creation of the R10 monster that eats up Sebring in a record 1 min 45 seconds!

Somebody plz explain the sense in that!

As Jag has already stated, the almost sorted LMP2 Porsche was bang in the ballpark for being behind the LMP1 class front runners. About 2-3 seconds was the aim, thats where they were.
The Lola's were running straight out of the box and the Dyson team and drivers themselves admitted that with half a years development and set-up data they'd be turning 44s around Sebring all day long. So that would have put it in the right place too. Shame that Lola didn't have a car ready for Dyson at the end of last year when Audi started its development work too.

[paul-collins]

Wonder what the lap times would be for an R10 with the R8 V8TT in the back? I've heard that it would be faster than the diesel. The diesel will make it up in less pit stops...

The P1 rules are about trying to balance power to weight - hence the restrictor sizes. Do you find fault with that?

The restrictor size change in the refuelling is based on differing viscosities of the fuels, again to make the time to drop 90L of fuel into the tank the same, regardless of which fuel is chosen. I'm not sure I agree with this one, because this is where the advantage is handed to the diesel - they have fewer stops based on the engine choice, shouldn't they take the penalty of fueling time? Ultimately, though, I guess it doesn't bother me that much...

[Bentley03]

The joy of the four class system the ACO has brought to endurance racing is the wonderful diversity, not just between the four classes but within each class. The Audi R10 is an example of that diversity, love it or hate it.

The difficulty for the ACO is to bring an equality between competitors using such a broad spectrum of engine type and engine capacity, normally aspirated or turbocharged. They have clearly produced a set of regs for diesel powered LMP1's which are designed not to disadvantage them. I can't blame the ACO for that.

If changes are needed in the next couple of years in order to even things up with the petrol powered cars, I'm sure it will be done. But the Audi hasn't even raced at Le Mans yet. Let it race over the 24 hours and then make your draw your conclusions. It was a relatively small margin of victory at Sebring..........

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Audi R8R

The aircon regs are actually designed for the GT1 cars, but have been introduced across the board in an effort to allow the design on closed top LMP's at a later date. And Audi managed to get the R10 down to the base weight anyway, even with an engine that could have put them well over the limit. 10/10 for engineering work. Especially when other LMPs have come in as too heavy. That can be taken care of in the design phase, its not difficult.

Base weight meaning what, 900kg or 925kg? I've asked the question before and nobody seems to know the official weight that the R10 was registered at during Sebring.

Since no LMP coupe's are competing this season (and the ACO should know) why not announce that the new weight will come into force from 2007 onwards? Oops sorry, the Audi R10 is visiting Le Mans this year, silly me!

Also, please refer to Henry Pescarola's comments from a few week's ago on his teams now worthless efforts at reducing the weight closer to 900kg virtually going straight out the window!

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by JAG

BTW, the new regs were not to slow the cars, but stop the aero instability,

I realise that, thats why I used the word "Check" and not "Slow".

But in the case of the R10 they haven't even done that, as illustrated by the record 1 min 45 sec lap time.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Base weight meaning what, 900kg or 925kg? I've asked the question before and nobody seems to know the official weight that the R10 was registered at during Sebring.

Since no LMP coupe's are competing this season (and the ACO should know) why not announce that the new weight will come into force from 2007 onwards? Oops sorry, the Audi R10 is visiting Le Mans this year, silly me!

Also, please refer to Henry Pescarola's comments from a few week's ago on his teams now worthless efforts at reducing the weight closer to 900kg virtually going straight out the window!

The R10 designer said they would have been down to the 900kg minimum, but obviously 925kg helps them in the short term. Incidently the designer was not in favout of A/C.

The wieght saving at Pescarolo will not go to waste. It's always better to be under weight and ballast up, to optimise weight distribution.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by JAG

The R10 designer said they would have been down to the 900kg minimum, but obviously 925kg helps them in the short term. Incidently the designer was not in favout of A/C.

The wieght saving at Pescarolo will not go to waste. It's always better to be under weight and ballast up, to optimise weight distribution.

Yes, I read the R10 designer article on DailySportsCar and saw the bit about 900kg. I guess we'll have to take his "optimistic" word for it, but let me ask you this...

If the ACO regulations give Diesels a similiar amount of BHP as Petrol, the same refueling times as Petrol, and a generous weight limit which gives parity with a Petrol car. Then on what other basis is a Petrol car supposed to beat a Diesel car given that a Diesel will in addition always have better Torque and better Fuel economy?

Surely, given the fact that Diesel cars have 2 unbeatable strengths (Torque/Econ) over a Petrol car, why are the only 3 advantages a petrol car might have over a Diesel also been taken away?

The only thing a petrol car has left to compete on is reliability and driver skill, both of which a Diesel team has in it's own power to improve also.

[JAG]

The risks and cost of developing a diseal are problematic.

The Audi engine designer would have liked to design a petrol engine, marketing reasons dictated the need for a diesel.

You have to give incentives to develop new technology.

Lets wait until we see a nimble Creation with 5l Judd or sorted Lola with AER V8 and direct injection before writing off petrol.

A couple of years down the line, diesel performance breaks will likely be cut back.

Who knows, by that time a Honda or Toyota could be expoliting the next, latest and greatest, engine technology,

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by davyboy

P1 is poorly supported from a manufacturers perspective so its predominantly privateers who have no way near Audi's resources. Its stealing candy from a baby.

You could say the same of the Penske Porsches in P2, and yet Intersport managed to be in the hunt all day and able to take class victory and second overall. It was amazing to watch and there was a fair bit of tension as you watched it, before the Porsche broke, feeling like each lap would likely be the end of the Intersport fairy tale.

I was prepared not to like the Audis, was stunned at the reports of their speed at Winter Test (I was out of country), and was blown away by them this past week at Sebring. They are weirdly quiet, mostly gear noise and 'whosh' out of exhaust. There is no smoke at all. There is the tiniest trace of diesel smell (unlike the bus I was behind on the way home!!!!). They are wildly impressive machines. They also seem to still have the understeer the R8 had in mid speed corners, and only the caliber of drivers they employ, or a few others, would be able to rotate them with the torque without tossing them in the fence. They put on a show.

I do miss the ripping screech of a Judd.

robert

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

Base weight meaning what, 900kg or 925kg? I've asked the question before and nobody seems to know the official weight that the R10 was registered at during Sebring.

A little birdy told me the exact numbers over the weekend. Suffice to say it is fodder for the conspiracy minded...;0) Will report on as much at some point this week. Just getting my ducks in a row (birdies?) and collecting my thoughts...

[Bentley03]

I don't think there's much doubt in anyone's mind that the diesel regulations have been set to give the appearance of equality with the petrol regulations, whilst ignoring the inherent advantages that a diesel engine has. Endurance racing is the perfect stage upon which to prove this.

Audi tell the ACO we're coming to Le Mans with a diesel. The ACO (who embrace new and 'green' technology) like the headline, and give Audi the opportunity to prove that diesel engines are better than petrol engines.

It's too easy to call 'foul'. Audi's massive achievement in producing this car should surely be acknowledged. I like new technology. I like to see the bar being raised forcing others to up their game.

And at Le Mans in June I shall marvel at what Audi has created. And if the script is played out as we are guessing it will, my enjoyment will be completely satisfied by the battle which will ensue between the traditionally powered LMP1's.

The ACO are quite happy to award penalties where appropriate. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that this will not be the case with the R10's. Diesel may dominate for the next couple of years, but I'm confident the ACO will peg them back if they are too dominant.