[Rules] Drivers running out of brakes - the case for a rule change or two?

[duke_toaster]

According to EJ on the BBC's Interactive Forum on Sunday and other sources Williams have vetoed a change to increase the width of the front brake discs by 4mm. It might harm overtaking, but at least it would stop Mark Webber-style brake failures. One thing I don't want to think about is the prospect of one of them running in to one of several corners at circuits like Ile De Notre Dame. An out of control car plowing in to the side of the pit garages would be disastrous.

Currently the parc ferme rules don't allow brake changes between qualifying and the race. Perhaps brake disc and pad changes could be allowed? Or would that be too little?

[davyboy]

Maybe F1 should move back to steel discs... the increased braking distances would also [hopefully] improve overtaking.

[kartracer41]

Just like other things, do we need to take the driver out of racing any more? I mean, what ever happened to having to having to "save your brakes"? We should just keep idiot proofing this sport. Soon it will be remote control with all spectators watching from a couple miles away on a big screen.

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

Part of racing is getting the most out of your equipment without destroying it.

If a teams equipment can't last the race they either need to restrain their drivers or work out a setup that achieves what they require. If they can't manage that aspect then they don't deserve the points in my view.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Currently the parc ferme rules don't allow brake changes between qualifying and the race. Perhaps brake disc and pad changes could be allowed? Or would that be too little?

I think that most drivers would prefer not to have a change of disc and pad material just before the start of the race.Prefering,I think,to have brakes that are 'bedded in'.

So they want 32mm discs instead of 28mm discs?

Give'm 26mm discs I say.

[Knowlesy]

Competent drivers keep their brakes working all race.

Drivers in other series have it far harder (brakes wise) than F1 guys.

[broadrun96]

Think it compounded by some tracks and the risks some of the teams take at closing down the ducts. Was Brawn also running Brembo discs like Red Bull and STR? It also could have just been a batch failure on a set of discs made special for the street circuit and something we may not see again.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Competent drivers keep their brakes working all race.

Drivers in other series have it far harder (brakes wise) than F1 guys.

Such as?

This an edited post I made on another thread about the same subject.

Originally Posted by strider

We all saw what happened when Mark Webber's right front disc disintegrated and several other drivers were having to nurse their cars home for the same reason. That's not racing and it's actually downright dangerous.

Next year the cars will be heavier with the extra fuel, so the problem will increase.

In the post-race show on the BBC's red button Martin Whitmarsh highlighted this and said that most of the teams within FOTA are in favour of the thickness of the discs being increased from 28mm to 32mm, which sounds like very good sense to me.

[zac510]

How do you know they won't just drop the duct size to cut down on aero drag and then end up eating up the disc anyway?

[broadrun96]

Is there a minimum duct size as well as max or can the teams cut it down as much as they want/dare?

[Mr V]

Iirc, this was the first race this year where we have seen a brake failure of some description, no need for a knee jerk reaction imo.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Iirc, this was the first race this year where we have seen a brake failure of some description, no need for a knee jerk reaction imo.

It wasn't a reaction to what happened on Sunday. Whitmarsh and the others are looking ahead to next season when the cars will be heavier, which will exacerbate the problem.

Montréal is also supposed to be back on the calendar and that's another circuit that's hard on brakes, IIRC.

[jab]

I think they should just make the race shorter tbh. It's too long compared to all the other races in terms of time

[crmalcolm]

Surely the brake failures are just another case of F1 equipment being designed to within the limit of sacrificial reliability in favour of performance.
Road cars have engines, brakes, gearboxes, tyres etc. that last for a lot longer than a F1 race.
The fact that any component on a F1 car could fail is part of the sport's appeal.
Should we have a tyre compound that will last 1,000 laps to prevent drivers slowing down due to degredation? Should we have engine designs that would last 40 races, preventing the need to preserve engine life?

[steve nielsen]

It's not the first race this happens, at Montreal it happened every year.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Surely the brake failures are just another case of F1 equipment being designed to within the limit of sacrificial reliability in favour of performance.
Road cars have engines, brakes, gearboxes, tyres etc. that last for a lot longer than a F1 race.
The fact that any component on a F1 car could fail is part of the sport's appeal.
Should we have a tyre compound that will last 1,000 laps to prevent drivers slowing down due to degredation? Should we have engine designs that would last 40 races, preventing the need to preserve engine life?

I agree, let's face it, until the rules insisted on a longer period, most engines were designed to just last slightly longer than a Grand Prix. F1 is all about extracting as much as possible out of everything, which means sometimes they sail close to the wind on reliability. Larger brake ducting may adversely affect the aerodynamics of the car, but would also make the brakes last longer (which may enable the car to finish the race?).

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

I think they should just make the race shorter tbh. It's too long compared to all the other races in terms of time

Isn't that like saying more players seem to get cramp in the FA cup, so make the match 80 minutes instead of 90

Surely we don't want to see shorter races, but drivers managing their car better.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Isn't that like saying more players seem to get cramp in the FA cup, so make the match 80 minutes instead of 90

Surely we don't want to see shorter races, but drivers managing their car better.

I think he was talking about Singapore specifically...even without a safety car it would take longer than the average GP. Not a reason to make it shorter though, the distance for a GP is 300 km or two hours, whatever comes first. If some take two hours - fine.

[old man]

Originally Posted by jab

I think they should just make the race shorter tbh. It's too long compared to all the other races in terms of time

To quote some other guy "you cannot be serious", these are supposed to be the big test of equipment and skill and I think they are only just long enough as is.

The skill includes chosing equipment that will do the job and driving accordingly. So far as I know there is no rule that says you cannot have steel brakes if you prefer (correct me if I am wrong please). The engine and gearbox rules and other things are written to stop them building cars that totally self destruct in 2 hours, what you might call the Colin Chapman principle!?

How did McLaren and others make the brakes last? If the cars are heavier next year they need to design and select materials accordingly in all areas.

[Marbot]

I was wondering if there was anything stopping the teams from using more than one 'disc' brake for each wheel? Just a thought.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by old man

To quote some other guy "you cannot be serious", these are supposed to be the big test of equipment and skill and I think they are only just long enough as is.

The skill includes chosing equipment that will do the job and driving accordingly. So far as I know there is no rule that says you cannot have steel brakes if you prefer (correct me if I am wrong please). The engine and gearbox rules and other things are written to stop them building cars that totally self destruct in 2 hours, what you might call the Colin Chapman principle!?

How did McLaren and others make the brakes last? If the cars are heavier next year they need to design and select materials accordingly in all areas.

I absolutely agree with this post old man. To make this out to be a safety issue is nonsense, of course the teams can make (or buy in) and use brake discs in such a way that 28mm discs will last a race under next years rules, what they might have to do is make compromises which reduce performance in order to achieve it. OMG this might mean longer braking distances, havn't we all been askgin for that for the last two or three years?

[Marbot]

There's also the possibilty that software will have to be used that enables the car to get to the finish on the amount of fuel it has is in its tank in 2010 (see MotoGP).This may mean that some cars go slightly lighter on fuel than others in the hope that they can build a lead in the beginning of the race and then defend that position later on.Useful on circuits where overtaking is difficult I would have thought.

This will also mean that brakes would get an easier time (as they would anyway) during the latter part of the race.

[crmalcolm]

Even if the safety argument is taken, and brake size is increased, the teams will then choose a compound that will have a higher attrition rate and will only just last a race distance.
IF safety is a genuine concern with regards to brakes, then surely this is one area that a 'spec' part should be imposed on all teams.

Could someone answer the following query:- If KERS recovers energy during braking, does this mean that more braking is done by the KERS system and less by the brakes?

If so, another argument in favour of KERS?

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Even if the safety argument is taken, and brake size is increased, the teams will then choose a compound that will have a higher attrition rate and will only just last a race distance.
IF safety is a genuine concern with regards to brakes, then surely this is one area that a 'spec' part should be imposed on all teams.

Could someone answer the following query:- If KERS recovers energy during braking, does this mean that more braking is done by the KERS system and less by the brakes?

If so, another argument in favour of KERS?

There are lots of ways of making the argument complicated and mathematical but I don't believe any of them would change your conclusion that on a KERS car the brakes do less work. In fact if the restrictions on KERS were removed and it was allowed on all four wheels you should be able to build a car with almost no brakes at all! You would still need something as it is impossible for an electrical KERS system to bring a car to a complete halt as they become less and less effective as the speed drops. btw before anyone shoots me down I am not seriously suggesting this extreme is a practical proposition at the current state of the art.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Could someone answer the following query:- If KERS recovers energy during braking, does this mean that more braking is done by the KERS system and less by the brakes?

Yes.