How to fix F1?

[Casper]

Jaguar have just announced they are ending ICE new model production from 2020. That will throw the cat amongst the pigeons and so the internet goes bonkers.

Dr Ralf Speth, JLR’s chief executive, said: “Every new Jaguar Land Rover model line will be electrified from 2020, giving our customers even more choice.”

From here https://findandfundmycar.com/article...lectric-hybrid

I can't see how F1 can ignore the growing avalanche towards BEV's.

[Born Racer]

I suppose Formula 1 has to decide what it is looking to get out of its new engine.

Is it trying to innovate and spearhead development of an efficient and environmentally-engine and fuel? I'm not sure within the narrow parameters of F1 regulations, it can make as good a contribution as real-world development can. The myriad engine and fuel possibilities and all of the energy consumption downsides they entail requires something far more open-minded than the specific route that F1 tends to be stuck in - unless F1 leaves the regs really, really open.

Is it to be seen to be doing something? It needs to be careful to avoid superficial shows of environmental friendliness, because people can easily see through that and expose holes in its green credentials?

Is it going to do something affordable and fairly reasonable environmentally compared to now? Choose a route, develop it, nurture some bright minds and be done with it (until the next engine and fuel innovation - that might be at great cost, though). Given Formula 1's comparative lack of impact on the environment, a middle ground such as this would might be the best option.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Casper

Jaguar have just announced they are ending ICE new model production from 2020. That will throw the cat amongst the pigeons and so the internet goes bonkers.

Dr Ralf Speth, JLR’s chief executive, said: “Every new Jaguar Land Rover model line will be electrified from 2020, giving our customers even more choice.”

From here https://findandfundmycar.com/article...lectric-hybrid

I can't see how F1 can ignore the growing avalanche towards BEV's.

He's a bit late then.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

Jaguar have just announced they are ending ICE new model production from 2020. That will throw the cat amongst the pigeons and so the internet goes bonkers.

Dr Ralf Speth, JLR’s chief executive, said: “Every new Jaguar Land Rover model line will be electrified from 2020, giving our customers even more choice.”

From here https://findandfundmycar.com/article...lectric-hybrid

I can't see how F1 can ignore the growing avalanche towards BEV's.

Wonder who will buy the name out of bankruptcy ....

[Adam43]

Ford, Tata? Oh, they’ve already, practically, done that.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wonder who will buy the name out of bankruptcy ....

Your reasoning is??

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

He's a bit late then.

I suppose it depends on precisely what he means.If he had said that all new models will not have any type of IC engine it would have meant one thing,but if he had said that all new models will incorporate an element of electrification it would have meant something else.I suspect the latter is what was intended to be conveyed and is probably coming our way.I think I have encountered a fairly similar statement from Renault and it seems VW are no longer developing IC engines.


I will miss the notion of filling my car and potentially being able to travel 750 miles on the fuel reserve.I don't think I will have too many fond memories of the cost of new exhausts,plugs,injectors,catalysts and all the other elements necessary to stay mobile and in compliance with the law.I realise that battery packs are likely to be expensive but they seem to be a large cluster of mobile phone batteries in concept and I haven't had a phone battery failure in a long time.I also expect the inherent value of their contents to take some of the sting out of buying replacements.


I suspect the next generation F1 power units might effectively switch the roles of IC and electric so that the electric unit is the primary power source and the IC element,perhaps limited to 40 litres or so will be the push to pass element of the package.For those who are in denial about the fate of the IC engine and who really want to see a pure IC series this will be painful to accept.The problem is that F1 has for quite a while marketed itself as the leading series for displaying technology and can't really walk away form the carefully curated image.I don't think a nostalgia focused series will get very far-it certainly didn't when Tom Wheatcroft tried to launch a series for fifties style racers several years ago.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I suppose it depends on precisely what he means.

I think it was a joke concerning the typo in the quoted post

Not that it matters for your post

For everyday travel I’m up for it.

If wish F1 could get across the real technology, engineering and working practices that they do use. Rather, and I don’t think this is F1’s fault as such, everyone is fixated on it being exactly the same as he road car. “But I don’t have to change my tyres every 60 miles on my Qashqai”. *yawn* The way they approach the problem and the indirect learnings are he important things. That pursuit of excellence can be applied to many problems in life. D he variety, they design and develop these cars to the nth degree, but are also thrown into an environment where they have to adapt during a race.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by wnut

Wonder who will buy the name out of bankruptcy ....

Why would going EV send Jaguar to bankruptcy? Surely targeting Tesla, Xpeng and the rest in the emerging performance luxury EV segment is exactly what Jaguar should do?

Jaguar have never won the ICE luxury car sales battle against Mercedes-Benz and BMW in any recent decade, so it would be pointless to continue with that losing battle. Range Rover are doing alright in that space though, so that's why Land Rover are continuing with ICEs for a bit longer.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Adam43

“But I don’t have to change my tyres every 60 miles on my Qashqai”. *yawn*

Full race tyres are more than feasible. I am not sure why it is not considered.


"No fresh boots needed."

The dynamics of Grands Prix with no pitstops would be most curious. A procession? Probably, but perhaps not?

[S griffin]

I think we need to focus more on F1 power units. EVs are all well and good on road cars, but are not for F1 and anyway EVs haven’t quite taken over the market place

Formula E works well in it’s own right and it’s fine if manufacturers want to go there. However for me I don’t see any reason for F1 to go down that route

[Peter Mallett]

IMO there is no need to panic, fossil fuels will be around for many years to come and the more people move to "green" methods of heating etc. the more there will be to burn in our racing engines.

I an more worried about the biofuels suggestion since in order to cope with the need many billions of hectares of farm land will be made over and that means the population will suffer.

Hydrogen is mooted as a possible green/clean fuel and it probably is, but by the time you've burnt umpteen tonnes of carbon building the processing plants you may as well have not bothered.

Redesigning and building a new racing car every year using "Carbon" fibre isn't particularly green either.

There is no free energy so someone needs to get real and stop trying to save the planet by making F1 and Sport "green". It just can't happen.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Redesigning and building a new racing car every year using "Carbon" fibre isn't particularly green either.

There is no free energy so someone needs to get real and stop trying to save the planet by making F1 and Sport "green". It just can't happen.

Much the same with the rotor blades used for many wind turbines, the manufacturers of which often use carbon fibre. I believe that there is a growing pile or piles of beyond repair blades around the world that cannot be recycled, and are just being left to rot over the next few decades/centuries.

And complete wind turbines are not that "green" to produce and install, either.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed.

[S griffin]

F1 has been needing to cut downforce for a while. They should never have let F1 cars be cluttered with winglets, although they are not as bad as they were in 2017, when they decided wrongly to increase downforce and the racing and the look of the cars suffered. Just need to get rid of those winglets on the sidepod and it would be complete

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Just need to get rid of those winglets on the sidepod and it would be complete

Over 1800 posts in 125 pages and it turns out that all along all we needed to do is to remove wingets! Dammit, it was that simple!

Good job you're here to keep us all straight.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

Over 1800 posts in 125 pages and it turns out that all along all we needed to do is to remove wingets! Dammit, it was that simple!

Good job you're here to keep us all straight.

1865 posts to be exact.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

1865 posts to be exact.

1866

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

1866

Both posts being "over 1800", you can both have a doughnut

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Much the same with the rotor blades used for many wind turbines, the manufacturers of which often use carbon fibre. I believe that there is a growing pile or piles of beyond repair blades around the world that cannot be recycled, and are just being left to rot over the next few decades/centuries.

And complete wind turbines are not that "green" to produce and install, either.

They are greener than the oil installations they replace though. A turbine isn't meant to be a 100% green solution. It's just meant to be better than the current solution. The amount of rotting turbine blades pales into insignificance compared to the amount of waste produced (and sometimes discharged overboard) from the oil and gas installations - before decomissioning.

No such thing as a complete solution. All about those steps forward.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think we need to focus more on F1 power units. EVs are all well and good on road cars, but are not for F1 and anyway EVs haven’t quite taken over the market place

Formula E works well in it’s own right and it’s fine if manufacturers want to go there. However for me I don’t see any reason for F1 to go down that route

And the ICE did not take over from the horse overnight either but by the same process BEV's will be introduced as needed via vehicle replacement.

As for where F1 is going, I doubt anyone has fully thought that out yet because they really are between a rock and a hard place. Society is moving away from ICE's as a whole and this will accelerate so those wanting to remain pure and simple will be the reducing number of fans, mostly old farts like me and that won't make for a rosy future at all.

You might not see any reason to change but get back to us in five years time with your view then. I have to speculate that the present push to electric has to affect the talks on the next power unit both in how long it is envisaged to last for and simply what to use. Ten years is simply unrealistic as the ICE component will be a dinosaur and very unloved by then. Maybe no change with a view to see what happens later in the present decade could be a good idea.

Peter, I mentioned the same point you raised re bio fuels a whole ago but apparently no one quite gets it. The disruption to the world's fuel supply is untenable and has been raised in political circles already so god know why F1
is so short sighted to even contemplate the idea.

[P38 in workshop]

The world moves on and clinging to the past is hardly a way to progress.I don't suppose many of the posters here are doing so with the aid of a dial up modem or sending faxes.It didn't take long for those modes of communication to become outmoded-except for fax votes on the nature of F1!

[Peter Mallett]

Confession time, I am shortly to become the proud owner of a MACH E. I bought it because it looks like fun and I ordered it before the government announcement about 2030.

But being realistic I don't see these vehicles or indeed their technology saving the planet, I do see them moving the problem along the line to where we will see protests about slave labour, contamination worse than the asserted fracking issues and corruption on vast scales as a minimum.

There are many sources but this one summarises the problem. And these metals are used not only in batteries but in the manufacture of wind farms. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact

In case anyone is unsure this explains biofuels. https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/biofuels/

They look great but think of all the hectares needed to grow the product to meet demand, as Casper and I have mentioned. We will no doubt see rioting because food supplies will be disrupted and countries where they can grow the product will need to import more foodstuffs to meet the shortfall, thereby creating inflationary problems.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

But being realistic I don't see these vehicles or indeed their technology saving the planet

Electrification is the result of a single-minded focus on reducing exhaust emissions. Nothing else. The wider claims are marketing hyperbole and the guff of zealots. Like any such mandated change, it is monomaniacally achieved without consideration of the knock-on effects.

The law of unintended consequences is one of the world's most powerful forces and (to come back to the admittedly very vague topic of this thread) is also to seen in F1 rule changes down the years and almost every one of the 867* suggestions made in these 125 pages.


* Made up number

[Peter Mallett]

Yes indeed. Go back to full fat V8s and hang the consequences. It's not going to save the planet nor is it going to do any lasting damage considering the volume of stuff burnt. Only my opinion of course.

I saw a post on LinkedIn from an american poster. He wanted to know who was the GOAT. Not one mention of Lewis Hamilton or motorsport which possibly demonstrates how important F1 and its actions is to the world in general.