Great Drives by 'Non-greats'

[woodbine]

Herbert Nurburging 1999. As everybody else was falling off the track he made an inspired tyre choice and walked away from everybody to give Stewart GP its only win

[Muzza]

Execellent thread, that brought back many good memories.

It is wonderful to see so many Bellof fans out there!

[EERO]

On course Amon at Clermont Ferrand in '72, but to my mind a near-great if not a great, but in the smae race, Helmut Marko moving up in an uncompetitive BRM into the top six in the early going before that horrid incident that cost him his eye.

[graves]

Eddie Irvine, Suzuka 1997 or 1998 (cant rememeber which). drove round the outside of Hakkinen and Schuey on the opening lap through the Esses (Hakkinen was still trying to work out how he did it that night!) Finally passed Villenueve into the chicane at the end of the lap and vanished into the distance!

[krt917]

It was 1997

That was a good drive, but I was never quite sure how quick he actually was because JV was doing his 'hold up the pack to try and catch the Ferraris out' bit whilst he was under protest. Nevertheless, some good moves by Eddie. I bet he enjoyed those first few laps!

[beau]

some of my favourites
Jeam Alesi Canada 1995
Gerhard Berger Germany 1997
Rubens Barrichello Germany 2000

[Kicking-back]

Alesi in Canada 1995 was not a great drive by Alesi.

It was a good one, but he had better drives elsewhere which went unrewarded.

[Skam85]

Hill Hungary 97

Alesi Canada 95

Firman Spain 03

Webber France 02

McNish Italy 02

Trulli Europe 99

Panis Brazil 01

Fisichella Brazil 03

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Skam85
Hill Hungary 97

Not meaning to nit-pick, but a guy who wins a world championship can surely lay claim to "great", can't he?

[deeks6]

A slightly different spin on the thread - what about the people who have won Grand Prix in genuinely "ordinary" machinery compared to the opposition?

Richie Ginther (Honda) Mexico 1965
Pedro Rodriguez (Cooper) Kyalami 67
JP Beltoise (BRM) Monaco 72
Vittorio Brambilla (March) Austria 75
Alan Jones (Shadow) Austria 77
Elio de Angelis (Lotus) Austria 82
Michele Alboreto (Tyrrell) Detroit 83
gerhard Berger (Benetton) Mexico 86
Alessandro Nannini (Benetton) Suzuka 89
Olivier Panis (Ligier) Monaco 96
Damon Hill (Jordon) Spa 98
Johnny Herbert (Stewart) Euro 99
Giancarlo Fisichella (Jordan) Brazil 03

How about those?

[krt917]

Yes, that could be a good way of extending the thread. Presumably that would also include great drives by the greats when they had mediocre equipment (though that can get difficult to define!). In which case I would add these to your list deeks:

-Moss (Cooper) - 1958 Argentine GP
-Peterson (Lotus) - Either of his wins in 1974 (the 72 was ANCIENT by then)
-Villeneuve, G - 1981 Monaco and Spanish GPs
-Schumacher - 1996 Spanish, Italian and Belgian GPs - Am still convinced that car was a dog.

I'm sure there are others. A few of Senna's and Prost's might get on their too, though it is difficult to know exactly how 'ordinary' a car has to be to qualify for the list!

[BootsOntheSide]

Of those lists, only a few were really imrpessive - far more depended on luck and other drivers having reliability problems. Others were in cars which were fast but unreliable, such as Berger Mexico 86 and de Angelis Austria 82. Jones' win at Austria stands out as a great showing,a dn we can't overlook that Fisichella qualified 8th in Brazil in (at best) the 8th-best car.

[krt917]

I think that's true; luck and circumstances do have a lot to do with it. However, I think that is always likely to be the case with cars that are really poor! Otherwise, we'd be worried about the quality of the rest of the drivers!

Jones' drive at Austria was a great one, but remember that that Shadow proved capable of top 6 finishes in the latter part of the season so probably wasn't as bad as we might think.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by krt917
I think that's true; luck and circumstances do have a lot to do with it. However, I think that is always likely to be the case with cars that are really poor! Otherwise, we'd be worried about the quality of the rest of the drivers!

Jones' drive at Austria was a great one, but remember that that Shadow proved capable of top 6 finishes in the latter part of the season so probably wasn't as bad as we might think.

Yes indeed, which is why I think Jones performances in that Shadow really stand out. Remember, he had Patrese as a teammate and absolutely towelled him that year and, in fact, ended up 7th in the WDC. Remember also that the Austrian race was'nt just a race of attrition...behind him were Lauda and Reutemann in the Ferraris, Peterson, Watson etc and he started 14th on the grid and passed them all in the wet conditions. And the Shadow (even though Jones says it was OK in damp conditions) was a very ordinary car. Until the very end of the year, 2 good drivers (and Jarier and Oliver) couldnt get it qualified in the top 10 - usually Jones was between 10 and 15 and Riccardo was between 15 and 20.

It was at this time that people realised how good Jones was...Ferrari actually signed him up for the next year and reneged on the contract when they were able to get Villeneuve (North American market). Williams snapped him up and the rest is history.

I'd disagree slightly about Peterson 74 - the car was still a relative front-runner until the end of the year (the Monza drive was a beauty).

Villeneuve in Monaco was a good one because he qualified on the front row and drove very well (and carefully, for a change) in a basically bad handling car. The Spanish was just the horsepower on the straights and hold-up-the-freight-train race from memory.

The Schumacher 96 is interesting...I actually agree wholeheartedly - that car was the 5th or 4th best car at best. Does go to show how good the guy is. Irvine was a pretty good driver and he hardly got a point in it.

[krt917]

[Patrese256]

Originally posted by deeks6
I think Jones performances in that Shadow really stand out. Remember, he had Patrese as a teammate and absolutely towelled him that year

Taking absolutely nothing away from AJ's performances for Shadow...but "towelled" Patrese? There was little to choose between them in qualifying, although AJ's greater experience told in the races. In (Shadow team manager) Alan Rees's view Patrese "looked to have more potential."

[Knowlesy]

But ultimately didn't show it, although there were glimpses.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Patrese256
Taking absolutely nothing away from AJ's performances for Shadow...but "towelled" Patrese? There was little to choose between them in qualifying, although AJ's greater experience told in the races. In (Shadow team manager) Alan Rees's view Patrese "looked to have more potential."

I was'nt knocking Patreses BTW, a good, solid reliable driver but 6-3 in qualifying, 5-0 in races they both finished and 22 points to 1 is a towelling. Jones had only had one full season in another dog car, the Surtees (which he managed to get into the points 3 times, another great effort) and a few races in a Hill (also got a 5th) and some other cars (can't remember what).

Incidentally, Patrick Head also said later that when they signed Jones, they also thought he would be a good solid driver who would bring it home in 5th or 6th if the car was good enough but soon realised that he was going to win a lot of races if they could produce a competitive car. Head still rates him as good as any driver that Williams have had - which is a fairly big wrap considering the drivers that have had their bum in a Williams.

[graves]

Not saying it was not a good drive, but wasnt Schumacher the only driver to adopt a full wet set-up for the 1996 Spanish GP? (krt917/deeks6)

[Mr V]

Originally posted by graves
Not saying it was not a good drive, but wasnt Schumacher the only driver to adopt a full wet set-up for the 1996 Spanish GP? (krt917/deeks6)

Thats the beauty of having 2 cars at his disposal, still, a brilliant drive.

[x_dt]

Keke Rosberg in the unwieldy Williams-Honda in Dallas in 1984.