1987 Dunlop RAC British Touring Car Championship - Discussion & Results

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Found the relevant videos of this round:

http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/77...s-hatch-part-1
http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/77...s-hatch-part-2

A few notes to the original results:

Grid: 3-2-3-2-etc. for a standing start.

Alex Moss running #69. This car being the red ex-Demon Tweeks car normally wearing #67 and the 9 does see to be of a different font of the 6.

A few shots of Brian Chatfield's Rover is seen.

Paul Harmer's Vauxhall seen of a couple of occasions with #48 and what looks like 14" steel rims!


Jesper

That makes sense- Harmer's Astra was an ex-prodsaloon, which Paul also used in road saloon and other club racing, so the steel rims wouldn't be a great surprise, as I think many of the prodsaloon Astras raced on them in '85/6, as they were standard fitting on the Astra GT/E

The red Hodgetts Corolla seemed to vary between #67 and #69 depending on who was racing it- As you say, #69 here with Moss, and I think for Tony Dron at Donington later in the year, but #67 at the Oulton 2-driver race with Needell/Hodgetts (with a clearly different-sized 6 & 7 on a pic I've seen).The car was also used at a couple of ETCC/WTCC races, so the team must have spent a fair amount of time peeling race numbers off and replacing them...
Other than Hodgetts being in the white Toyota GB car with #66, I'm still not sure which driver raced which CHMS Corolla with which number for a fair part of the '87 BTCC season...

[KA]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Round 1 – April 12 1987, Silverstone

Chris Hodgetts led a 1-2-3 CHMS Toyota succes but only because Geoff Kimber-Smith dropped out from second late in the race.

,
8./ #66 / Chris Hodgetts / Hodgetts / D / Toyota Corolla GT / 15 laps / 27m34.28 / FL
10./ #? / Alan Minshaw / Hodgetts / D / Toyota Corolla GT / 14 laps
12./ #? / Paul Longfield / Hodgetts / D / Toyota Corolla GT / 14 laps
DNFs

Originally Posted by KA

The red Hodgetts Corolla seemed to vary between #67 and #69 depending on who was racing it- As you say, #69 here with Moss, and I think for Tony Dron at Donington later in the year, but #67 at the Oulton 2-driver race with Needell/Hodgetts (with a clearly different-sized 6 & 7 on a pic I've seen).The car was also used at a couple of ETCC/WTCC races, so the team must have spent a fair amount of time peeling race numbers off and replacing them...
Other than Hodgetts being in the white Toyota GB car with #66, I'm still not sure which driver raced which CHMS Corolla with which number for a fair part of the '87 BTCC season...

Just taken another look at the Autosport report for Round 1, and the qualifying notes do identify the three CHMS Corollas- 'Further down the grid, Chris Hodgetts was fielding 3 Corollas in pursuit of his championship defence. There was ex-Fiesta pilot Paul Longfield in the ex-Alan Minshaw car, Alan Minshaw himself in Andrew Bagnall's car, and the boss, thankfully in his own- brand new- Toyota'

So at Round 1 we've got Hodgetts in a newly-built white car, Longfield in the red ex-Minshaw/Demon Tweeks car, and Minshaw in the Bagnall WTCC car- I think this might have been Hodgetts' 1986 car, in white

[KA]

Found a few Motoring News race reports from 1987 which add a little more information for the early rounds- I'll re-list the results in the same table format we've used in the other threads to include the details from these, plus a few more things that turned up through the thread

Round 1- Silverstone, 12 April 1987 15 laps
Race supporting the FIA International F3000 Championship

Pos.

Cl.

#

Driver

Team/sponsor

Cat.

Car

Grid.

Time

Fastest lap

Laps

Time

Notes

1.

1.

1.

Andy Rouse

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

1

1m39.87

25m58.83

Fastest lap

2.

2.

4.

Dennis Leech

Leech

A

Rover Vitesse

2

1m42.84

26m00.43

3.

3.

5.

David Carvell

R.A. Potter/Steetley

A

Rover Vitesse

7

1m46.32

26m00.88

4.

4.

2.

Peter Hall

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

4

1m43.68

26m27.29

5.

5.

6

Graham Goode

Goode/Listerine

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

6

1m45.62

26m36.48

6.

6.

3.

Graham Scarborough

Letchworth Roofing

A

Rover Vitesse

5

1m44.72

27m05.59

7.

1.

38.

Mark Hales

Terry Drury Racing/Shell

B

Ford Escort RS Turbo

8

1m38.22

27m33.56

Fastest Lap

8.

1.

66.

Chris Hodgetts

CHMS/Toyota GB

D

Toyota Corolla GT

9

1m49.74

27m34.28

Fastest Lap

9.

2.

31.

Jon Dooley

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

11

1m52.30

14 laps

10.

2.

??

Alan Minshaw

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

12

1m53.69

14 laps

11.

1.

55.

Colin Pearcy

Pearcy

C

MG Metro Turbo

10

1m51.87

14 laps

Fastest Lap

12.

3.

??

Paul Longfield

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

15

1m57.25

14 laps

DNF.

DNF.

77.

Geoff Kimber-Smith

AGK Motorsport

D

Toyota Corolla GT

13

1m53.92

12 laps- engine

DNF.

DNF.

32.

Kevin Eaton

East Midlands Transport

B

Nissan Bluebird Turbo

18

2m35.53

2 laps- ???

DNF.

DNF.

8.

Tim Harvey

John Maguire/Istel

A

Rover Vitesse

3

1m42.93

1 lap- engine

DNS.

DNS.

62.

Tony Crudgington

Crudgington

D

Toyota Corolla GT

14

DNS-electrics

DNS.

DNS.

?

Graham Rose?

Rose?

A

Mitsubishi Starion Turbo

17?

DNS-water leak

Prodsaloon

DNS.

DNS.

?

Roger Saunders?

Saunders?

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

16?

DNS-withdrawn

R5 Cup Car

DNA.

DNA.

30.

Rob Kirby

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

DNA- car not finished

[chunterer]

Thanks KA!

Just looking again at the qualifying times for the first 2 on the grid; Rouse's RS Cosworth was nigh on three seconds quicker than Leech's Vitesse - a substantial advantage that strangely wasn't replicated in the race, where Dennis was seemingly much more competitive as the two endulged in quite a scrap for most of the distance IIRC?

Dare one suggest that Rouse was 'taking it easy' in this cars debut, or had the Devonian simply got a better set up for the race?

Dave Carvell also had a good run, but he didn't seem to go as well again until later in the season. May need to revisit his posts in the Vitesse thread to refesh our memories as to how he felt his season went with this car.

[KA]

Round 2- Oulton Park , Good Friday, 17 April 1987 14 laps

Pos.

Cl.

#

Driver

Team/sponsor

Cat.

Car

Grid.

Time

Fastest lap

Laps

Time

Notes

1.

1.

8.

Tim Harvey

John Maguire/Istel

A

Rover Vitesse

2

1m45.92

1m47.69

25m36.81

Lap Record

2.

2.

6

Graham Goode

Goode/Listerine

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

6

1m49.49

25m39.55

3.

3.

10.

Mike Newman

Newman/Newman's Footwear+Burlington

A

BMW 635CSi

3

1m47.97

25m50.13

4.

4.

3.

Graham Scarborough

Letchworth Roofing

A

Rover Vitesse

5

1m48.88

25m51.43

5.

5.

2.

Peter Hall

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

7

1m50.20

25m53.49

6.

6.

5.

David Carvell

R.A. Potter/Steetley+Appleyard

A

Rover Vitesse

4

1m48.18

26m00.88

7.

1.

38.

Mark Hales

Terry Drury Racing/Shell

B

Ford Escort RS Turbo

?

N/T

1m53.14

26m48.72

Lap Record. Qualified out of session

8.

1.

66.

Chris Hodgetts

CHMS/Toyota GB

D

Toyota Corolla GT

8

1m50.40

1m52.22

27m12.91

Fastest Lap- Lap Record

10.

2.

??

Chuck Nicholson

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

9

1m53.88

27m13.17

10.

3.

??

Alex Moss

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

?

N/T

27m13.62

Qualified out of session

11.

1.

?

Roger Saunders

Saunders/UniqueAir+Bedford Tyres

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

11

2m02.67

2m01.80

13 laps

R5 Cup Car. Lap Record

12.

2.

31.

Jon Dooley

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

10

1m55.76

13 laps

lost wheel studs late in race

DNF.

DNF.

7.

Mike O'Brien

Alan Docking-Linden/Swan National+Castrol

A

Holden Commodore VK

1

1m45.53

4 laps-overheating

DNF.

DNF.

30.

Rob Kirby

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

?

N/T

2 laps- melted piston

DNS.

DNS.

??

Alan Minshaw

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

DNS

1m57.41

DNS

Drove Nicholson's car in qualifying.

According to Motoring News, Martin Birrane was originally entered in a Hodgetts Corolla, but withdrew. Chuck Nicholson and Alan Minshaw both qualified the car in his place, and the decision that Nicholson would race was only made on race morning!
Alex Moss missed official practice on the Thursday and qualified his CHMS Corolla out of session on Friday.
Rob Kirby also arrived on Friday and qualified out of session- the team had still been finishing the Alfa right up to the the point of leaving for Oulton...

The race was apparently originally scheduled for only 12 laps, until it was pointed out that this distance was too short to qualify it as a points-scoring race under the Championship regs- it was then- apparently reluctantly, in light of the sparse entry- increased to 14 laps. MN commented 'A similar-sized Thundersports field is OK for 40 laps of course, but the BTCC just isn't flavour of the month at the moment'

They also commented on the small entry- described as a 'forlorn' 11 cars, boosted by 3 Friday morning arrivals: 'a great shame, as if all those who do have eligible cars were to turn out, then there would be precious little cause for complaint' and 'The cars are out there somewhere. If only they can all be persuaded to turn up in the same place, at the same time, then we may get somewhere'

[KA]

Round 3- Thruxton , Easter Monday, 20 April 1987 14 laps

Pos.

Cl.

#

Driver

Team/sponsor

Cat.

Car

Grid.

Time

Fastest lap

Laps

Time

Notes

1.

1.

4

Dennis Leech

Dennis Leech

A

Rover Vitesse

1

1m25.59

23m16.12

2.

2.

6

Graham Goode

Goode/Listerine

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

9

1m29.78

23m20.67

3.

3.

5.

David Carvell

R.A. Potter/Steetley+Appleyard

A

Rover Vitesse

3

1m26.73

23m25.86

4.

4.

7.

Mike O'Brien

Alan Docking-Linden/Swan National+Castrol

A

Holden Commodore VK

5

1m27.12

1m25.97

23m40.46

Fastest lap

5.

1.

66.

Chris Hodgetts

CHMS/Toyota GB

D

Toyota Corolla GT

8

1m50.40

1m28.52

23m48.45

qualified and raced car intended for Longfield

6.

5.

2.

Peter Hall

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

7

1m28.33

25m58.98

7.

6.

10.

Mike Newman

Newman/Newman's Footwear+Burlington

A

BMW 635CSi

6

1m27.24

24m03.91

8.

1.

38.

Mark Hales

Terry Drury Racing/Shell

B

Ford Escort RS Turbo

10

1m31.00

24m19.44

9.

2.

77

Geoff Kimber-Smith

AGK Motorsport

D

Toyota Corolla GT

11

1m31.70

24m20.08

10.

3.

??

Paul Longfield

CHMS

D

Toyota Corolla GT

14

1m38.62

24m50.21

qualified and raced car entered for Alex Moss

DQ.

DQ.

??

David Grimshaw

Grimshaw/Halsall Builders

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

13

1m35.49

DQ- fire extinguisher. R5 Cup car

11.

1.

45

Roger Saunders

Saunders/UniqueAir+Bedford Tyres

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

15

1m47.97

15 laps

R5 Cup Car.

12.

2.

31.

Jon Dooley

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

12

1m33.05

15 laps

DNF.

DNF.

8.

Tim Harvey

John Maguire/Istel

A

Rover Vitesse

4

1m27.00

10 laps- handling/tyres

DNF.

DNF.

3.

Graham Scarborough

Letchworth Roofing

A

Rover Vitesse

2

1m26.21

4 laps- front wheel bearing

25m51.43

DNS.

DNS.

30.

Rob Kirby

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

DNS

N/T

piston

possibly did not arrive?

MN's reporter wasn't too impressed by this one: 'Perhaps the BARC's results sheet said it all about the third round of the Dunlop British Touring CarChampionship with the line 'No race incidents were reported' It was a race of little change and a great deal of tedium for the paying spectator'

Probably not much in the MN report that Jesper hasn't already posted from Autosport's version of events- a few extra notes:

After the Oulton engine problems, Mike O'Brien had an old engine in the VK- a unit used by Grice in the Estoril ETCC round the previous autumn. He was also in all kinds of trouble with the big Holden's handling in qualifying- the springs were changed for the race.

Pretty much everyone seemed to be in trouble with tyres- winner Leech deciding to drive a careful race and try to look after the tyres as much as possible. Harvey, Carvell, Newman, O'Brien, Hall and Dooley are all mentioned as suffering from tyre problems- Harvey's leading to retirement

The Alfas apparently weren't running in the new Evolution spec in these early races, the report comments that the team were waiting for more parts from Italy, including spare engines and the full body kit. Dooley was running with very low boost in an attempt to preserve the turbo- the team not having a spare. Did Kirby's car make the trip after the Oulton engine failure? MN refer to Dooley as the 'sole' Alfa

CHMS were playing 'Musical Corollas' again, a spot of car swapping needed after Hodgetts damaged his intended mount following a puncture in the first qualifying session. He then took over the car intended for Paul Longfield (whose deal to drive the car had only been arranged the previous day) Paul then took over the third car, originally intended for Alex Moss. I think Chris raced the older of the two white cars, while Longfield raced the red ex-Minshaw chassis....

Both Renaults also took part in the R5 Cup race- Saunders only ran the (slower) first session of BTCC qualifying, so started from the back of the grid. Grimshaw finished 11th to win the class, but was disqualified for having the wrong size of fire extinguisher in the car

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

Paul Harmer's Vauxhall seen of a couple of occasions with #48 and what looks like 14" steel rims!

Paul has popped up on another forum to talk about his BTCC exploits - prod and road saloon it was, as KA correctly said.

I believe the car went to Mike Devine, who wrote it off in the middle of '89 in a Slick 50 road saloon race. Earlier that season it finished 2nd in the first long circuit race I ever saw. I have a big soft spot for the Mk1 and Mk2 Astras (I would love to know more about the Mk1 GTE in BTCC '84 or '85) and to find that the Devine and Harmer cars were one and the same, iirc, made it one car I wanted to track down. I was very disappointed to find it was no more - unless it's in pieces somewhere, still!

[KA]

Round 4- Thruxton , Easter Monday, 20 April 1987 16 laps

Pos.

Cl.

#

Driver

Team/sponsor

Cat.

Car

Grid.

Time

Fastest lap

Laps

Time

Notes

1.

1.

1.

Andy Rouse

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

1

1m22.58

1m22.53

22m46.29

Fastest lap & lap record

2.

2.

8.

Tim Harvey

John Maguire/Istel

A

Rover Vitesse

2

1m24.55

22m48.53

3.

3.

5.

David Carvell

R.A. Potter/Steetley+Appleyard

A

Rover Vitesse

4

1m25.74

23m08.17

4.

4.

4

Dennis Leech

Dennis Leech

A

Rover Vitesse

3

1m25.13

23m51.59

5.

5.

7.

Mike O'Brien

Alan Docking-Linden/Swan National+Castrol

A

Holden Commodore VK

9

1m26.98

23m40.70

6.

6.

10.

Mike Newman

Newman/Newman's Footwear+Burlington

A

BMW 635CSi

7

1m26.47

23m43.00

7.

7.

3.

Graham Scarborough

Letchworth Roofing

A

Rover Vitesse

6

1m26.15

23m53.47

8.

1.

77

Geoff Kimber-Smith

AGK Motorsport

D

Toyota Corolla GT

13

1m29.71

23m59.24

9.

1.

38.

Mark Hales

Terry Drury Racing/Shell

B

Ford Escort RS Turbo

12

1m29.39

1m28.28

24m04.25

Fastest lap & lap record

10.

8.

2.

Peter Hall

Rouse/ICS

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

8

1m26.51

24m07.21

11.

2.

66.

Chris Hodgetts

CHMS/Toyota GB

D

Toyota Corolla GT

10

1m27.49

1m28.43

24m08.23

Fastest Lap

12.

3.

62

Tony Crudgington

Crudgington

D

Toyota Corolla GT

14

1m30.53

15 laps?

13.

1.

45

Roger Saunders

Saunders/UniqueAir+Bedford Tyres

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

18

1m34.43

1m33.68

15 laps?

.Fastest lap & lap record

14.

4.

74

Phil Dowsett

North Essex Motorsport

D

Ford Escort RS1600i

17

1m32.26

15 laps?

started from pitlane

DNF.

DNF.

?

Bill Griffin

Griffin Motorsport?

A

Rover Vitesse

11

1m28.65

9 laps-fuel pressure

DNF.

DNF.

6

Graham Goode

Goode/Listerine

A

Ford Sierra RS Cosworth

5

1m26.12

7 laps-blown turbo

DNF.

DNF.

30.

Rob Kirby

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

16

1m31.40

6 laps- broken intercooler pipe

DNS.

DNS.

31.

Jon Dooley

ARDT/John West

B

Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo

15

1m30.89

DNS- engine

DNS.

DNS.

??

David Martell

Martell

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

19

1m35.20

DNS-withdrawn

DNS.

DNS.

??

David Gibson

Gibson

C

Renault 5GT Turbo

20

1m36.82

DNS-withdrawn

20 cars turned up at Thruxton, though only 17 would start in the end...
Seemingly as ever, tyres would be an issue at Thruxton, several drivers having tyre wear problems
Jesper has already given the story of the race, but a few additional details from MN's report:
Tim Harvey commented that finishing 2nd wasn't ideal, but 'if there's only Andy Rouse ahead of you, you're not doing badly'

Peter Hall had a spin at the chicane in the race, as well as being troubled with a misfire. (the report has a pic of the ICS Sierra pointing the wrong way as Dowsett's Escort goes past)

Kirby's turbo failure in the Alfa was described as due to a broken intercooler pipe. He claimed he'd qualified on a set of tyres found lying around the workshop 'I think they're from 1985'

Geoff Kimber-Smith fancied his chances for the class win from the start, as 'I knew my tyres would outlast those that Chris had on' Hodgetts had flown back for the race after finishing 8th o/a and 3nd in class in the Anderstop ETCC race the previous day- describing the Swedish outing as 'the hardest race of my life' - his efforts to claw back a 45 second lead built up by the class-winning Fina Corolla being hampered by a combination of tyre wear, hot weather, and fumes leaking into the Corolla from a broken exhaust after co-driver Andrew Bagnall had a trip across the grass earlier in the race....He'd been within 15 seconds when a puncture dropped the CHMS car to 3rd late in the race

Graham Goode's Cosworth was 'basically fine, but just needs sorting' -
Graham complaining of a lack of test mileage for the Listerine Sierra- 'Every time I take it somewhere, we get rained on'

Phil Dowsett missed the second qualifying session for a gearbox change. In the race, he started the green flag lap from the pitlane, after picking up a puncture on the warm up lap- he then had to pit for tyres in the race

Mike O'Brien was unhappy with the handling of the Commodore, but the team couldn't put a finger on what was causing the problem

Bill Griffin was treating the debut of the ex-Schlesser Marlboro Rover as a test session- the car only finished at midnight on Friday, and according to Bill 'at the moment, it handles like a threepenny bit!'

Two additional Renaults appeared in qualifying, the cars of David Gibson and David Martell. Neither would start the race, the drivers opting to save their cars for the Renault Turbo cup race which followed the BTCC round

One oddity of the race report- as we've seen before, Autosport and MN's reports don't always agree. In this case, the race is listed as 16 laps, but the results table only credits Crudgington, Saunders and Dowsett with 13 laps in the race... I'm assuming a misprint, although the report says that Dowsett finished 'three laps down after a stop to change rubber'


A few bits from the news pages- mostly possible entries that wouldn't happen:
Motorcycle racer Steve Parrish had tested a CHMS Corolla at Silverstone, and was a possibility to do a few races later in the season- Chris Hodgetts said it all depended on Parrish's Yamaha commitments- Presumably these got in the way...

Gerrit van Kouwen hoped to line up a BMW M3 drive for the GP support race- he wasn't yet sure which team it would be with...

Jeff Allam was hoping to put together a deal to run a Rover at the GP,though it depended on finding sponsors- 'Tom has agreed to allow me the use of a Rover for the GP, and I'm on the lookout for some money'

Rallying news- Australian privateer Rex Muldoon was due to start a programme of European events, with the aim of qualifying for a FISA B-seeding by the end of the season. He will drive a Ford Sierra Cosworth, prepared and backed by his own company, API Motorsport. This is presumably the car he would use at the final BTCC round

[Jesper OH]

Lots of details helping to flesh out the '87 season some more. Thank you, KA, and please keep the updates flowing.

13 laps for Dowsett after a tyre change seems reasonable. Just rechecked the Autosport report that says 15.

Jesper

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Round 4- Thruxton , Easter Monday, 20 April 1987 16 laps

Bill Griffin was treating the debut of the ex-Schlesser Marlboro Rover as a test session- the car only finished at midnight on Friday, and according to Bill 'at the moment, it handles like a threepenny bit!'

Gerrit van Kouwen hoped to line up a BMW M3 drive for the GP support race- he wasn't yet sure which team it would be with...

Jeff Allam was hoping to put together a deal to run a Rover at the GP,though it depended on finding sponsors- 'Tom has agreed to allow me the use of a Rover for the GP, and I'm on the lookout for some money'

Hmmm, now I was at that Easter Thruxton round, complete with a heavy dose of flu, and whilst I accept I was probably a bit dopey as a result, I don't recall the Marlboro Vitesse, or Rouse being present?

Was this result actually from the Whitsun meeting KA?

Re the oither news, I wonder what, (or whose) M3 Gerrit planned on pedalling. I doubt it could've been the Prodrive car as that was always down for Sytner to drive, unless he was pinning hopes on driving one of their rally cars. Perhaps he was investigating hiring a works car from Schnitzer or Linder?

The Allam story was always interesting. The story was rumoured on several ocassions yet it never happened. I have suspicions that one reason it never appeared was that in all likelihood a late model TWR Vitesse with Allam at the wheel would've beaten the 'hac'k Commodore, even with Walkinshaw at the wheel. We'll never know because neither car showed up. The other reason might have been that the Rover was either sold by the time the BGP came along and/or Allam wasn't able to find the money referred to in his quote.

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Re the other news, I wonder what, (or whose) M3 Gerrit planned on pedalling. I doubt it could've been the Prodrive car as that was always down for Sytner to drive, unless he was pinning hopes on driving one of their rally cars. Perhaps he was investigating hiring a works car from Schnitzer or Linder?

When I read the van Kouwen bit I thought of the BMW Dealer Team Nederland M3 of Arthur van Dedem. Only as a thought.

Jesper

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hmmm, now I was at that Easter Thruxton round, complete with a heavy dose of flu, and whilst I accept I was probably a bit dopey as a result, I don't recall the Marlboro Vitesse, or Rouse being present?

Was this result actually from the Whitsun meeting KA?

Yes, well spotted- I forgot to change the date! Should be Round 5, 25th May '87

Re the other news, I wonder what, (or whose) M3 Gerrit planned on pedalling. I doubt it could've been the Prodrive car as that was always down for Sytner to drive, unless he was pinning hopes on driving one of their rally cars. Perhaps he was investigating hiring a works car from Schnitzer or Linder?

Could well have been the Dutch car, as suggested by Jesper- As you say, the Prodrive car was Sytner's, otherwise it would have come down to hiring a car from Europe- so maybe Schnitzer or Linder as you suggest?

The Allam story was always interesting. The story was rumoured on several ocassions yet it never happened. I have suspicions that one reason it never appeared was that in all likelihood a late model TWR Vitesse with Allam at the wheel would've beaten the 'hack' Commodore, even with Walkinshaw at the wheel. We'll never know because neither car showed up. The other reason might have been that the Rover was either sold by the time the BGP came along and/or Allam wasn't able to find the money referred to in his quote.

The other main reason for the no-show at the GP was that Walkinshaw, Allam and the Commodore went off to the Nurburgring WTCC round the same weekend instead. IIRC, both a Rover for Allam and the Commodore for Walkinshaw were on the entry list for the British GP meeting, but I think there had been rumours in Autosport/MN the week before the GP that TWR had other plans for that weekend....

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

When I read the van Kouwen bit I thought of the BMW Dealer Team Nederland M3 of Arthur van Dedem. Only as a thought.

Jesper

I thought that car appeared in 1988, did that car run in 1987 as well?

Originally Posted by KA

The other main reason for the no-show at the GP was that Walkinshaw, Allam and the Commodore went off to the Nurburgring WTCC round the same weekend instead.....

Granted KA, I guess the Holden Nurby outing was possibly a last minute decision. Maybe only after Jeff couldn't raise the money to run the Vitesse for the weekend at Silverstone, so maybe Tom decided to invite Jeff to join him in Germany instead?

[Jesper OH]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I thought that car appeared in 1988, did that car run in 1987 as well?
?

http://www.racehistorie.nl/cpz/cpz5_m.htm
Look at about 3/4 down the page. I have seen a glimpse of this car somewhere, which definitively was dated to 1987.

Jesper

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Jesper OH

http://www.racehistorie.nl/cpz/cpz5_m.htm
Look at about 3/4 down the page. I have seen a glimpse of this car somewhere, which definitively was dated to 1987.

Jesper

Yes, got it. Now i've seen that I do recall it running. The black livery, think I saw it in Autosport or something? It competed against a couple of Sierra's including the Marlboro car we've often referred to? Reminds me a bit of the Leaseplan livery on the '87 sPA winner!

In 1988 it was resprayed white IIRC, unless that was a new car.

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes, got it. Now i've seen that I do recall it running. The black livery, think I saw it in Autosport or something? It competed against a couple of Sierra's including the Marlboro car we've often referred to? Reminds me a bit of the Leaseplan livery on the '87 sPA winner!

In 1988 it was resprayed white IIRC, unless that was a new car.

The car that turned up at the Donington ETC race in '88 was definitely white with 'Unigarant' sponsorship, similar to this, give or take a couple of stripes...
http://www.bmwe21.net/temp/dedem2.jpg

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

The car that turned up at the Donington ETC race in '88 was definitely white with 'Unigarant' sponsorship, similar to this, give or take a couple of stripes...
http://www.bmwe21.net/temp/dedem2.jpg

That's the car I remember, had some more colour on it as you suggest, thanks to some Compaq sponsorship. Orange or red and blue diagonals across the roof and bonnet or something?

IIRC it was giving the Prodrive cars a bit of a hard time as best of the rest M3's begind the German entred cars at Donington!

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

That's the car I remember, had some more colour on it as you suggest, thanks to some Compaq sponsorship. Orange or red and blue diagonals across the roof and bonnet or something?

IIRC it was giving the Prodrive cars a bit of a hard time as best of the rest M3's begind the German entred cars at Donington!

That's the one- All the Sierras and the Nissan broke, leaving the race to Schnitzer- they'd lost a car early on (IIRC Ellen Lohr got punted into the gravel at Redgate by either a privateer M3 or the Bemani Supra), one of the Bigazzi M3s went out with a blown engine, so Ravaglia/van de Poele won from the 2 Prodrive cars, with the Dutch car 4th ahead of the Mark Thatcher Bigazzi M3...I don't think anything but M3s or Corollas actually made the chequered flag!


http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...Donington.html

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

That's the one- All the Sierras and the Nissan broke, leaving the race to Schnitzer- they'd lost a car early on (IIRC Ellen Lohr got punted into the gravel at Redgate by either a privateer M3 or the Bemani Supra), one of the Bigazzi M3s went out with a blown engine, so Ravaglia/van de Poele won from the 2 Prodrive cars, with the Dutch car 4th ahead of the Mark Thatcher Bigazzi M3...I don't think anything but M3s or Corollas actually made the chequered flag!


http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...Donington.html

Staying slightly OT for a mo, Van de Poele's name cropping up there is interesting. He was a works regular in ETC and DTM in 1987 but not an ETC regular in '88 IIRC?

I've got a funny feeling he was the name linked to a sporadic BMW works BTCC outing either in '87 or '88 as well?!! Think there might have been a rumour about a Schnitzer BGP entry. Might be way off beam on that though?

Also the post in the 86 BTCC thread about the 1986 Grice ETC Commodore advert is significant

Originally Posted by KA

A couple of interesting adverts- Allan Grice's Holden 'Holden Commodore- Full latest specification, as raced by Allan Grice at Monza, Donington & Hockenheim. This car is ready to race and is in England'. Contact phone numbers in the UK (0327 dialling code- no indication of location) and Belgium are given.

Hockenheim is where the original VK got badly pranged after the hectic dice with the Volvo's, so the obious question is, if this car was rebuilt and stayed over here after all, did this car become the O Brien '87 BTCC entry or was it sold elsewhere?

[Alfie72]

Hockenheim is where the original VK got badly pranged after the hectic dice with the Volvo's, so the obious question is, if this car was rebuilt and stayed over here after all, did this car become the O Brien '87 BTCC entry or was it sold elsewhere?

O'Brien's car in 1987 was the ex Grice 1986 ETC car.

See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...lden+Commodore

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alfie72

Hockenheim is where the original VK got badly pranged after the hectic dice with the Volvo's, so the obious question is, if this car was rebuilt and stayed over here after all, did this car become the O Brien '87 BTCC entry or was it sold elsewhere?

O'Brien's car in 1987 was the ex Grice 1986 ETC car.

See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...lden+Commodore

Yes indeed alfie, that's the obvious conclusion I thought we had come to as well, but I thought there was more than one car in Europe that year, especially after that shunt, so which one was used in '87 by Linden?

[KA]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Yes indeed alfie, that's the obvious conclusion I thought we had come to as well, but I thought there was more than one car in Europe that year, especially after that shunt, so which one was used in '87 by Linden?

Brock certainly had two- one ran several early-season races, then a second appeared for Spa. One of them also being the GMDS car at the TT. I don't know whether Grice had a second car after the Hockenheim shunt, or the original was repaired.

There certainly was a second Roadways car, the 'Chickadee' car that Grice shared with Graham Bailey at Bathurst, but I didn't think that left Australia?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by KA

Brock certainly had two- one ran several early-season races, then a second appeared for Spa. One of them also being the GMDS car at the TT. I don't know whether Grice had a second car after the Hockenheim shunt, or the original was repaired.

There certainly was a second Roadways car, the 'Chickadee' car that Grice shared with Graham Bailey at Bathurst, but I didn't think that left Australia?

It was definitely an ex Grice/Les Small built car that O'Brien used, but like you say, although we've kind of assumed that there was a second car after the Hockenheim shunt in '86, we haven't yet been able to nail that?

Alfie can you tell us whether there were one or two cars?

[Jesper OH]

I think the primary problem of the '86 Grice VK to '87 Docking VK is differing reports of what happened pre and post Hockenheim '86. Some reports suggests that the car was a write off at Hockenheim, but it seems that the car was rebuild and put into action later in the '86 ETCC, although described as not being as crisp as before. It then stayed at its 1986 base at Alan Docking Racing in Britain to end up as the '87 BTCC car of Mike O'Brien. That is my current understanding.

Jesper

[Tim Wilkinson]

Complicated by a later season preview in the usually reliable Autosport saying that O'Brien tested one Commodore and then raced another - the tested car remaining un-raced in BTCC.