Brabham BT28 - Page 5

allenbrown · 22 Apr 2006, 08:30 (Ref:1591597)

Sorry Andrew, I did mean BT28, not BT29. Got FBs on the brain...

Andrew Fellowes · 22 Apr 2006, 22:27 (Ref:1592185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Sorry Andrew, I did mean BT28, not BT29. Got FBs on the brain...

No problem, so to recap,

a BT21 is turned into the first BT28 for Schenks, who bends it, it is then repaired and reverts to being a BT21, and at the same time has a 4WD system added? I have always just accepted that, but as a rather odd saga. (or have I got the sequence wrong?)

Are you saying there are two different cars lurking within this loop?

allenbrown · 22 Apr 2006, 22:47 (Ref:1592193)

I don't recognise your recap at all. My personal suspicion is that they are totally different cars.

Allen

Ted Walker · 23 Apr 2006, 07:18 (Ref:1592483)

I agree with Allen. The BT21 that appeared at Brands with wings on stalks front and back was dubbed BT21x. The Blankstone Brabham Quattro built up for him by Chas Beattie was called aBT21X but it was not an official "X" car as the 30X 35X and 36X cars.

Andrew Fellowes · 24 Apr 2006, 02:23 (Ref:1593355)

Quote from Autosport Sept.'69

"The Sports Motors BT28, the first one built –its self started life as the BT21X, when it did not have the new type bodywork. It seems next years production F3 Brabhams will be a refined version of the existing BT28."

The implies there was only one which (he said, grasping at straws in a mammoth effort to avoid total brain failure) is perhaps where I have gone wrong.
At the minimum we have three cars.

BT21X is used to produce BT28-1. Driven by Schenken then sold to Jacky Berenger, late 1969. This car has now disappeared.

BT28-23 Driven by Schenken now with Robert Foster, NSW.

BT21X-Q, (the auction house junkie) has absolutely nothing to do with BT28's, the only connection being that Schenken drove both BT21X's at some stage. It also was not an official X.

1. Did the first 21X listed above cease to exist?
2. When did Schenken drive the BT21 that became the BT21X-Q?

Andrew Fellowes · 24 Apr 2006, 03:34 (Ref:1593383)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

t –its self started life as the BT21X, when it did not have the new type bodywork.

Sounds as though its life as an X was very short so,

Question 3. Did this BT21X ever see active service as an X?

Question 4. Does the Quattro have the chassis plate BT21X-1?

RAP · 24 Apr 2006, 07:21 (Ref:1593456)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Fellowes

"
1. Did the first 21X listed above cease to exist?
2. When did Schenken drive the BT21 that became the BT21X-Q?

Schenken drove a Brabham entered by Sports Motors at the Boxing Day 1968 Brands meeting. I annotated my programme that day with BT21X. At thr previous meeting (24 November) he was still driving a Chevron.
Richard

Ted Walker · 24 Apr 2006, 07:51 (Ref:1593474)

Andrew. The quattro last time I saw it had no plate all I know is the AM No PS Ive started printing so bring lots of money in July !!!!

allenbrown · 24 Apr 2006, 07:53 (Ref:1593476)

Ted

Is the AM number consistent with it being a very late BT21?

Allen

Ted Walker · 24 Apr 2006, 15:42 (Ref:1593833)

Allen. Yes its in the last 30 or so Nos

Andrew Fellowes · 24 Apr 2006, 22:44 (Ref:1594200)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Walker

Ive started printing so bring lots of money in July !!!!

Excellent!!!!!!

RAP
I've just had another look at Stefan Örnerdal site, I missed it the last time I looked as I had assumed that Schenken drove a Chevron all year. I see he lists it as a BT28, I imagine he's done that with the benefit of hindsight, but I wonder if its worth pointing that out to him?

Was it a cold day? I have a hard time understanding racing in a UK winter!

RAP · 25 Apr 2006, 08:17 (Ref:1594380)

I've just had another look at Stefan Örnerdal site, I missed it the last time I looked as I had assumed that Schenken drove a Chevron all year. I see he lists it as a BT28, I imagine he's done that with the benefit of hindsight, but I wonder if its worth pointing that out to him

Stefan's material seems to be a straight copy of the Formula 1 Register Fact Book. which also says BT28. I imagine Duncan Rabagliati & Paul Sheldon applied hindsight is using the BT28 designation. Autosport's report says "Tim Schenken, giving the BT21X, or BT28 without bodywork, its first outing"

Was it a cold day? I have a hard time understanding racing in a UK winter!
Yes ! Again Autosport "Freezing icy weather was the scene for the BRSCC Christmas meeting at Brands". Mind you, this never stopped the crowds - a photo shows spectators lining the fence 2 or 3 deep on the entrance to Druids. One of the things one looked forward to at this meeting were new cars and car/driver combinations. Pity they no longer hold the meeting - I suppose we have all got soft!
RAP

Steve Wilkinson · 25 Apr 2006, 09:15 (Ref:1594442)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAP

Stefan's material seems to be a straight copy of the Formula 1 Register Fact Book. which also says BT28. I imagine Duncan Rabagliati & Paul Sheldon applied hindsight is using the BT28 designation. Autosport's report says "Tim Schenken, giving the BT21X, or BT28 without bodywork, its first outing"

I think what happened with the Black Books was that if there was no researcher present at a race they assumed the drivers were all in the same cars and did a cut and paste job! At least that appears to be the case with the British Hillclimb book.

Ted Walker · 26 Apr 2006, 07:25 (Ref:1595167)

The 21X had 23 c body on at Brands.

allenbrown · 26 Apr 2006, 07:45 (Ref:1595186)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I think what happened with the Black Books was that if there was no researcher present at a race they assumed the drivers were all in the same cars and did a cut and paste job! At least that appears to be the case with the British Hillclimb book.

So when are you going to compile all the hill climb records Steve?

Steve Wilkinson · 26 Apr 2006, 10:36 (Ref:1595314)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

So when are you going to compile all the hill climb records Steve?

When I get the British Sprint Championship records 100% up to date!

allenbrown · 26 Apr 2006, 11:35 (Ref:1595352)

Oh no! A completer-finisher.

I much prefer starting lots of jobs and leaving them half-finished. At least that's what my wife keeps telling me

Steve Wilkinson · 26 Apr 2006, 11:59 (Ref:1595369)

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Oh no! A completer-finisher.

I much prefer starting lots of jobs and leaving them half-finished. At least that's what my wife keeps telling me

Well, she should know!

I have actually started BUT it is very low-key. I will be looking for an existing site to host the database rather than set up a new one then anyone can access it through an established path.

allenbrown · 26 Apr 2006, 12:04 (Ref:1595375)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

I will be looking for an existing site to host the database rather than set up a new one then anyone can access it through an established path.

When do we start?

Fingers · 26 Apr 2006, 21:14 (Ref:1595711)

Reading this thread has been fascinating for me having just bought Brabham BT 28 chassis number 04 from a very nice old gentleman in Whiltley Bay. So now madly working on its restoration as it was in good nick but tatty.
Any information about this car would be most welcome. We are preparing it to run European F2 regs with its current BDA engine but may return it to F3 with a Lotus engine later. Histort any related links and names of books for reference etc all very welcome.

Richard Davies in Gloucestershire email rdavies@rdprandc.com

Andrew Fellowes · 26 Apr 2006, 21:23 (Ref:1595725)

Hi Fingers, a warm welcome.

#4 seems to be one I have very little on. Did you get any history with the car when you got it?
All I have is Ulf Svensson then to Conny Anderson.

John Blades Racing was Whitley Bay too I think. (& Phil Barak)

allenbrown · 27 Apr 2006, 07:48 (Ref:1595993)

Welcome Richard

What history have you been given for your car? Any idea how long it's been in the UK?

Allen

James Murray · 27 Apr 2006, 10:22 (Ref:1596116)

Sounds like the Jowsey 'mobile!! Prior to Jowsey's it was owned by Steve Worrad. He bought it in Sweden (thats what he told me) probably around 99/2000.

I stand corrected if its not this car but would be a surprised if there were 2 BDA propelled BT28's from Whitley Bay!!

allenbrown · 27 Apr 2006, 10:38 (Ref:1596126)

Oops - I didn't notice that the thread had gone over a page and that Andrew had already asked the same question.

Fingers · 27 Apr 2006, 18:54 (Ref:1596457)

Hi to everyone and thank you for the polite welcome.

Yes it is definitely the Jowsey car; chassis 04. Owned by Mr Jowsey senior but driven by Jowsey junior as we understand it.

We think ULf Svennson originally ran the car with a 1000 cc screamer in Sweden in 1969 and continued with it into 1970. We have no idea when or who put the BDA in.

Does anyone know whether Mr Svennson is still alive and contactable - we thought, if he was, it would be good to get in touch. I saw in a book I bought recently (The Screamer Era) that he became a race car importer in Sweden; after retiring from racing I presume.

The car had a temporary exemption (2 years) to run in HSCC Formula 3 in UK with the BDA but this has expired now and despite a begging letter equesting a short continuation of the exemption it is not to be renewed, so we think we will run it for the moment in the Historic Formula 2 events that run on some of the same programmes as the HSCC races.

Richardsons built the engine and they are tracing the serial number so we know who bought it and when; but that wont necessarily mean that it went straight into the 28.

We didn't get any history at all with the car but Mr Jowsey senior has promised to hunt out what he can find and send it on to us.

The HSCC have also said they will let us have what they can from their records and we are in touch with Ted Walker who lives close to the workshop so he may have some info.

We have started to strip the body panels which appear to be the original ones, they have layer upon layer of paint on them and it is difficult to know what the first colour scheme was - looks like it might have been a rather horrible light blue!

Our plan at the moment is to repaint it in the Brabham colour scheme of BRG and gold; the BT20 in the May edition of Motor Sport looks stunning like that.

The chassis is the original, with the Arch Motors designation stamped into one of the rear tube ends and looks like it was originally intended to have the water sysyem running inside the chassis rails. It still has all the spurs to take the pipe connections - took us ages to work out what they were.

More news if anyone is interested as we discover things.

Thanks for the relpies in the meantime.

Richard

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