Hmm, will this prevent me from getting a racing licence?

[PTRACER]

Right, been to the opticians today...Vision in my left eye (good eye) is 6/9 uncorrected, and 6/5 with correction (better than 6/6 aka 20/20).

The dark patch in my vision on my right eye is caused by a squint aka lazy eye, which is VERY common in childhood. My right eye points inwards slightly. After a certain amount of time of having the squint (as a toddler maybe), you begin to stop using that eye and develop something called amblyopia aka a loss of vision, which becomes permanent unless treated during childhood. Amblyopia is actually a condition that occurs in the brain due to the body not "learning" to use the eye properly, not a physical abnormality with the eye itself.

Sadly for me, I never had it corrected and I am stuck with it for the rest of my life. The only proper treatment is to wear an eye patch before the age of 8 years old to force the bad eye to sort itself out. Eyes stop developing at the age of 8 so it's too late for me.

My central vision is affected, however I have full peripheral vision in both eyes. What I can see is neither blurred in the way of long or short sightedness and despite the bad eye, I can see better with both of them open than with just the good eye open.

Neither of my eyes have any physical abnormalities.

Reading what JohnD says worries me a lot, regarding the no defects in the central 20 degrees...Yet it contradicts itself two lines later by saying "Lose sight in one eye and you have to wait five years before you have a licence", suggesting if I was completely blind in that eye rather than impaired, I would still be OK to race (providing I got the OK from the MSA).

Any comments? Is that it for me, or do I still have a chance...?

Originally Posted by JohnD

C(a)26, Eyesight standards. [I paraphrase]
- Min. acuity 6/6 with both eys open
- Min. Binoc field at least 120 degrees horiz. NO DEFECTS IN THE CENTRAL 20 DEGREES [I suppose this will affect, and could ban, PTracer].
- Shatterproof specs or soft contacts
- Lose sight in one eye and you have to wait five years before you can have a licence.
- Double vison is an absolute no-no.
- "Normal" colour vision - distinguish red/green

[Tim Falce]

Just go for the medical and let the doctor decide. He will be able to interpret the medical form better than us.
Good luck with it.

[PTRACER]

Is it work enquiring with the MSA beforehand? Do they have people there with medical knowledge, or do they literally go by the result of the medical and the doctor essentially makes the decision of whether I'm fit to race?

[Mr.Jingles]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

The dark patch in my vision on my right eye is caused by a squint aka lazy eye, which is VERY common in childhood. My right eye points inwards slightly. After a certain amount of time of having the squint (as a toddler maybe), you begin to stop using that eye and develop something called amblyopia aka a loss of vision, which becomes permanent unless treated during childhood. Amblyopia is actually a condition that occurs in the brain due to the body not "learning" to use the eye properly, not a physical abnormality with the eye itself.

My central vision is affected, however I have full peripheral vision in both eyes. What I can see is neither blurred in the way of long or short sightedness and despite the bad eye, I can see better with both of them open than with just the good eye open.

Reading what JohnD says worries me a lot, regarding the no defects in the central 20 degrees...Yet it contradicts itself two lines later by saying "Lose sight in one eye and you have to wait five years before you have a licence", suggesting if I was completely blind in that eye rather than impaired, I would still be OK to race (providing I got the OK from the MSA).

Any comments? Is that it for me, or do I still have a chance...?

The dark spot is possibly caused by your optic nerve (everyone technically has a 'blind spot', but your two eyes and the brain between them fill-in/compensate. It's interesting how its done - google it for some great examples) and is, in itself, a normal thing. what's not normal is actually seeing it all the time and it affecting your FOV. Hence why I thought they'd be looking for something different, like a rod/cone problem or damage to your cornea.

Now, I'm guessing here that they believe the dark spot is permanently visible due to the Esotropic Strabismus (infward facing eye misalignment for the non-geeks - a 'squint') but there is no documented evidence to support this. Plus, as it's a cause for the Amblyopia ('lazy eye') you should have either a reasonably normal FOV, or degradation to that 'side' only. Loosing the central arc doesn't make any sense as the other eye would cover this, and it doesn't fit the diagnosis well at all. Hell, a Cavernous Hemangioma behind the eyeball would fit better (extreme) or a plain ol burst bloodvessel.

The other thing that makes we worry is that they say it is VERY COMMON - it isn't (between 2% and 5% of the population, congential at least). However, many toddlers get a 'false positive' due to the relative position and sizing of the eyes and nose (Pseudostrabismus) - this goes away with age.

I think you have been given a very bad diagnosis - I would suggest lodging a complaint for one, and seeing a referal from your GP for a specialist.

EDIT: Go for the GP/Specialist route.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

Is it work enquiring with the MSA beforehand? Do they have people there with medical knowledge, or do they literally go by the result of the medical and the doctor essentially makes the decision of whether I'm fit to race?

Why not phone them on Monday and find out, they are quite helpful.....sometimes.

[PTRACER]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

The dark spot is possibly caused by your optic nerve (everyone technically has a 'blind spot', but your two eyes and the brain between them fill-in/compensate. It's interesting how its done - google it for some great examples) and is, in itself, a normal thing. what's not normal is actually seeing it all the time and it affecting your FOV. Hence why I thought they'd be looking for something different, like a rod/cone problem or damage to your cornea.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my original post...It's not a specific dark spot that I can see in my vision, unless I really stare at one spot for a period of 10-15 seconds or more with only my bad eye open. With both eyes open, I can't see a dark spot at all.

I have just tried writing a few sentences with only my bad eye open and after my eyes adjusted, the words were no longer there, they disappeared into my blind spot. I can just see the words to the left of the preview window and I can see the colours of the banner at the top, although it's not in my central vision hence I can't tell you exactly what it says. And I can still see the edges of the screen, I can see my empty glass to the left of the monitor, my DVD spindle to the right of the monitor...but most of the writing and even the smilies to the right are behind the blackness...

I am sitting rather close to the monitor (approx 1.75ft) so the dark spot may sound bigger than it actually is but as far as peripherals are concerned, if I hold my arm out and stare straight and move out out of my FOV until I can't see it anymore, I can see maybe 80 degrees to the right at a rough estimate and around 45 degrees to the left (I have a very big nose).

As I said though, I have no problems with my left eye at all, I can't see a "dark spot" or ANY kind when I have both eyes open, my visual acuity is 6/6 with correction with my left eye open only and 6/5 with them both open, so the weak eye is certainly doing something.

I see no reason to complain about the diagnosis as the description fits what the girl (yes, she was quite young) told me at the opticians, plus it fits the description of what I have found on Google.

[GORDON STREETER]

Well seeing that very few people have 2 perfect eyes, (what I mean is exactly the same,) most peoples left and right ones work at different distances , then as most people have said try a race medical eyesight test at your local doctors, and then you will know.
You probably won't be as bad as several licenced "racing drivers" IMHO

[Mr.Jingles]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

*snip*

A little information is a dangerous thing ... in my case . I had assumed from what you had written that the 'black spot' was visible with both eyes open, which doesn't make any sense. However if one is closed, then you will see it and it is expected. I'll chalk this one up to experience, and ask more specific questions in future!

They still fed you a load of ******** about it being very common though, which is concerning. Though if you are an optician, maybe it is very common to see people with eye-related problems?

My 'gut feel' is that you would pass the eyetest as the eyes in combination seem to be doing the job to spec. However, I would strongly recommend you get a GP referal, for several reasons:

• Opticians are not always optometrists - the latter has greater ability, skill and experience.
• Most importantly, optometrists attached to a hospital would be on the lookout for other issues that an optician would not typically look for, and can provide a wider range of treatment as well.

[JohnD]

PTracer,
As you have seen, the universal advice is to see your GP. However, many (most?) GPs are not familiar with the requirements of the MSA medical. The best way to inform them is to have the 'Notes' that accompany a licence application. The MSA in their wisdom don't let you see the Notes, or even the Blue Book, until you apply for a licence!

I regret that I don't have my copy of those Notes, and I'm not due for my annual medical until next Spring.

But be reassured, the Blue Book regs provide for a second opinion if your GP is unhappy. If you cam borrow a copy see section C(a) Paras 24-28. The GP can give you an 'all clear', OR, if you or they are not happy, for the GP to send a report to the MSA's own Medical Consultant to read (doctor to doctor, usual medical confidentiality, For Their Eyes Only!).
Thus, you can appeal to a specialist who (I hope!) is familiar with the condition in question and the needs of motor sport. You have to give specific consent for that report to be sent (confidentiality) and pay the GP a fee for your medical and the report (it's a business, not NHS treatment). The final decision rests with the MSA, as it should.

I don't know Mr.Jingles, who may know more about eyes than I do (so forgive me, Sir, if you do!), but the 'blind spot' that we all have in our eyes is different to the effect of squint amblyopia. The natural blind spot is where the optic nerve joins the eyeball, and there is no light sensitive retina at that point. As Mr.J says, our brains 'fill in' the vision that is missing there by scanning what we look at. That shows how much the eye is NOT a camera, and the amount of vision that takes place by the brain processing the light signals from the eye.
When a squint causes a lazy eye, that processing is so disrupted that the brain switches off the anomalous part of the visual field, but the retina stays in place, sending signals as usual. However, The child's brain does develop differently and the changes are permanent, but there is much research on ways to improve the sight of the adult amblyopic patient (730 recent papers on PubMed).
Google for "adult ablyopia' and 'ocular dominance columns'.

Bite the bullet, PTracer! Apply for a licence and talk to your GP!
Good luck!

John

[Mr.Jingles]

Originally Posted by JohnD

I don't know Mr.Jingles, who may know more about eyes than I do (so forgive me, Sir, if you do!), but the 'blind spot' that we all have in our eyes is different to the effect of squint amblyopia. The natural blind spot is where the optic nerve joins the eyeball, and there is no light sensitive retina at that point. As Mr.J says, our brains 'fill in' the vision that is missing there by scanning what we look at. That shows how much the eye is NOT a camera, and the amount of vision that takes place by the brain processing the light signals from the eye.

When a squint causes a lazy eye, that processing is so disrupted that the brain switches off the anomalous part of the visual field, but the retina stays in place, sending signals as usual. However, The child's brain does develop differently and the changes are permanent, but there is much research on ways to improve the sight of the adult amblyopic patient (730 recent papers on PubMed).

Google for "adult ablyopia' and 'ocular dominance columns'.

Bite the bullet, PTracer! Apply for a licence and talk to your GP!
Good luck!

John

Hi John D - I am not a certified medical expert by any stretch... but I've spent years of my life going back and forth to the Royal Berkshire Hospital for my own problems, virtually identical, and I have the ear of some of the best minds in the field. As per my previous post, I do have a vested interest in seeing how science develops in this area. Interested Amateur if you will

Anyway - back to what I said about the 'blind spot' - JohnD is correct, this is NOT the same thing. However, they way it was initially described didn't match ablyopia either. However, once I found out PTRacer had closed one eye it all became clearer.... I think the fact that the 'blind spot' was also only in the central field of vision threw me off as well (that also doesn't match).

Anyway, back to the main crux of it. JohnD is correct in that most GP's aren't trained (or equipt) to do much other than basic sight tests - but you can get a referal to a specialist, which would help greatly. I don't want to knock Opticians too badly, but one didn't spot the problem during a cover test, and even went so far as to say I had 'perfect vision'! I didn't get angry but I did bring it up with their manager (with them present) so that they could learn from it.

See your GP, get the referal. But don't lose hope on the licence, it is certainly doable.

[PTRACER]

It seems the competition licence application form is available in PDF format on the MSA website...
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/m...ation_Form.pdf

Semi-related question, do any of these ARDS test days include any sort of pre-test training or is that £250 literally for just the test itself?:
http://www.motorsportvision.co.uk/re...p?sponsor=ards

[JohnD]

The application form, indeed, PT.
But as a new applicant you have to buy the "Go Racing Driver Pack" of information and a video. Tells you how to get an ARDS course and about the driving test that that course contains. It contains no medical, sight, intelligence, loyalty, lie or Daz doorstep challenge test. Watch the video, read the info pack, and a monkey who can read would pass the ARDS. (No offence!)
That will (I think) include another form, also four pages but in MUCH SMALLER TYPE, the 'Notes' on completing your application. Explains all the different styles of licence, advice for the doctor etc. etc.

MSV is not the only organisation offering ARDS. Google for "Motorsport ARDS" to find out others. You may have to ask how much, as many don't advertise their basic ARDS price, preferring to push their 'driving experience' offers. Come to think of it, I belive the info pack contains a list of ARDS schools.

JOhn

[Mr.Jingles]

The form seems about right - however, you do need to buy the licence pack (I've heard stories about them getting funny about printed off / copied forms, and know at least one person got refused on their ARDS test day because of this).

Looking at the previous page to that (http://www.motorsportvision.co.uk/tr...kdays-ards.asp) they look to be test-only. I would strongly recommend booking some seat-time directly before the test, to get you in the right frame of mind and comfortable with the car if nothing else. You don't need to have driven the circuit before (they will talk you through it) but it would be helpful to at least be familiar with it - google videos are your friend if you don't want to lash out on even more track time just yet

[Mr.Jingles]

Thats a snap then

Everyone has their own favourite circuits / way of doing things - personally I did the all day at Silverstone for £360ish quid. Not cheap, but quite a lot of track time, picked up a few car control pointers and a great 'wind down' session in a caterham afterwards!

[PTRACER]

Got the pack ordered, I'll aim to have my test early in 2009 as I don't want/need a 2008 competition licence with only two months of the year left.

I've been told Mallory Park is the place to go for the ARDS, though Brands Hatch is only 40 minutes away and I've driven the circuit before, so I'm tempted to do it there instead.

Definitely will book some seat time before the test...half-day's tuition or whatever it is, as I know I'll have more chance of passing if I know the handling/braking/accelerating characteristics of the car (providing I can drive the same car or an identical car to the one I take the test in).

Looks like taking the test etc. is rather more expensive than I expected though...£50 (at least) for the medical, £53 for the Go Racing pack, £49 to apply for the licence plus say, £2 for recorded delivery, £250 for the ARDS itself, maybe £250 for half a day's tuition....Nearly £700

I take it the £360 didn't include the test Mr. Jingles?

[Mr.Jingles]

http://www.silverstone.co.uk/php/ma_ARDS.html

£365 for Test and Tracktime - obviously, you need to add the Medical and Licence pack on-top, so I think I got to the near £500 mark without kit. I guess most tracks would offer something similar?

[PTRACER]

I emailed someone at Motorsport Vision and they said I can either bring along my own car (a 1994 Peugeot 306 1.4l that has barely 60hp left in the engine) and pay £25 for 20 minutes on the track, or I can drive one of their RenaultSport Meganes (230bhp!!) with an instructor for an hour...for £200

Despite the fact I've been told not to do it at Silverstone because the ARDS examiners are tougher than elsewhere, I think it's just about the best option money wise. Unless I can do the ARDS at Brands without paying MSV. Failing that, I just drive the 120 miles to Mallory and do it there instead.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

Looks like taking the test etc. is rather more expensive than I expected though...£50 (at least) for the medical, £53 for the Go Racing pack, £49 to apply for the licence plus say, £2 for recorded delivery, £250 for the ARDS itself, maybe £250 for half a day's tuition....Nearly £700

I take it the £360 didn't include the test Mr. Jingles?

That's only the start, get used to the expense. The list above will probably be the cheapest list you'll ever make in racing.

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by falcemob

That's only the start, get used to the expense. The list above will probably be the cheapest list you'll ever make in racing.

I was just about to say something similar. Where in the definition of motorsport as a hobby did it say "cheap". Even marshalling is costly!

Seriously, if you're counting the pennies at this stage I'm not sure it's the right hobby for you.

[Al Weyman]

Come on thats not fair I am always counting the pennies cause I am a tight git who likes a deal, don't mean to say I can't afford it!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I am always counting the pennies cause I am a tight git who likes a deal

True, good point!

[PTRACER]

I've been like a younger version of Arkright for the last two years, I've become a very, very tight git myself in order to save enough money to do racing. I even keep all my money in a Typhoo tea tin in the top of the wardrobe!

[Peter Dunne]

Originally Posted by PTRACER

I even keep all my money in a Typhoo tea tin in the top of the wardrobe!

Top of the wardrobe eh? If it goes missing and a V8 Chevy is seen fleeing the scene, then it WASN'T Al

[Mr.Jingles]

*scribbles notes*

Interesting, PT... And the address please? OH, and some times when you will be out

[touringlegend]

I was just about to comment on the cost thing too, but it appears everyone was thinking the same!!

It may vary down south but when I sat my ARDS at Knockhill I was in a car I'd never driven before (Leon Cupra) and only had about 10 laps in other cars round the circuit before that. The instructor put me at ease and guided me round telling me braking points, turn in etc then all the ARDS amounted to was a few laps without instruction. So I wouldn't worry too much.