What would you IMPROVE about 10-10ths???

[Wrex]

Good point Mount.

Firsty, I would like to congratulate the Administrators for putting an end to all the 'Waffle'. Although he did'nt offend me personally, and I did'nt see any breaking of the rules specifically, he was not following The spirit of the forum.

And this is the single biggest issue I have. Members (and even some admin - there, I said it) that are posting offensive or 'flame bate' posts and generally upsetting large numbers of members (some very long term) without 'technically' breaking the rules.

If a poster (regardless of status), constantly offends members (deliberatley or otherwise), is it worth losing popular and great contributing members?

As an example only, If AMoffat (sorry Moff - just an example ) was upsetting members with his posts, while staying within the forum rules, should we leave the forum or should he be banned. IMHO, these ppl should be warned and then banned if required. The Spirit of the forum should be placed above any specific member.

If large numbers of members found me offensive (que Moffat response), I would be happy to be banned and move on.

Can someone tell me what can be done in this situation?

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by mtpanorama
I love the place, it is great.

There is just a few small problems, well mainly one in particular at the moment, seeing as liz has informed us that one member has been removed. i think there is a groundswell of support amongst the forum for a certian member to be removed.
We have all put up with his aggresive garbage for long enough. I think people like this should be removed sooner rather then latter. We can all see the trend that they are going to take and it starts to wear pretty thin. It just wastes space on the forum, and turns me off going into certian sections as i cant be bothered wadding through all the **** to get to the real stuff.

I don't know who the certain member was, but getting rid of these lunatics is essential - fast.

A few months back, on a Saturday night a certain 'James Thompson' appeared, who posted stuff, acting as if he was the real BTCC driver, and a lot of users were taken in by this - me for one included. Of course he turned out not to be the real James, after he revealed himself, now saying he was a member of another forum, and showed us his site. I believed all this and blamed this other user, but it wasn't him. I felt so guilty, and it shows that this person childness, and **** talking can get others in trouble as well

[R]

Originally posted by touringlegend
I don't know who the certain member was

It was "economy_waffle" - see Liz' post in "Site News and Updates".

Originally posted by touringlegend
A few months back, on a Saturday night a certain 'James Thompson' appeared, who posted stuff, acting as if he was the real BTCC driver, and a lot of users were taken in by this - me for one included. Of course he turned out not to be the real James

This could be rectified by not allowing members to register under drivers' names - unless they are the real drivers (like for instance Robbie Buhl, who races in the IRL and is a member here at 10 Tenths - Jason Plato I believe is a member as well). Just a thought, don't know if this would be practical or feasible though. I suppose it would be pretty hard to check in each case.

[touringlegend]

Originally posted by R
This could be rectified by not allowing members to register under drivers' names - unless they are the real drivers (like for instance Robbie Buhl, who races in the IRL and is a member here at 10 Tenths - Jason Plato I believe is a member as well). Just a thought, don't know if this would be practical or feasible though. I suppose it would be pretty hard to check in each case.

After the JT incident I suggested just what you have to Craig Antill, and I think he took them on board. I could explain them here, but take a look at http://tentenths.com/forum/misc.php?s=&action=faq

[eatapc]

Originally posted by Wrex
Although he did'nt offend me personally, and I did'nt see any breaking of the rules specifically, he was not following The spirit of the forum.

Wrex, I agree with you "in spirit," but the reason civilizations have laws -- rules -- is not only to protect citizens from each other, but also to protect citizens from capricious authorities. Once everybody agrees to a certain set of rules, we can't be having administrators crack down on people with the excuse that they aren't following the spirit of the rules.

I haven't followed the specifics of the "Waffle" case. In general, if a poster is trashing up a forum but is not breaking any rules, then we probably need better rules. However, I don't necessarily think that just being annoying is enough to get someone kicked out. It's just too subjective, too much in the eye of the beholder. How many have to be annoyed? Two? Ten? Dealing with annoying people is part of life, and we must expect to get annoyed occasionally when we read the posts here. Removing consistently annoying posters from the forum is certainly possible and desirable, but we must use the rules -- and only the rules -- to accomplish it.

For those posters who constantly (and egotistically) start arguments with no constructive purpose, we must deal with them in two ways:

1) Don't encourage them. Don't respond in kind.
2) Send a warning to administrators.

[R]

and a third option: Put them on your ignore list.

Thanks for the info, Touringlegend, looks like it's feasible after all! I haven't checked out that part of the FAQ for a while since I've been around for a long time (), but that's certainly a good move on the administrators' part I think. People pretending to be someone else than they are can - as you have described - be a real hazard.

[conemoy_fawlef]

what can i say? but i am very very sorry for my actions i hope like me, you are prepared to forgive and forget so to speak and then start afresh. i hope i can continue to be a member of this forum - if not could the administrators please tell me they will ban me so that i know where i stand.

i will not discuss why i decided to be rude and offensive as this is a private matter and i beleive it should not have been a reason at all for my actions.

[Bononi]

Originally posted by Wrex
Good point Mount.

Firsty, I would like to congratulate the Administrators for putting an end to all the 'Waffle'. Although he did'nt offend me personally, and I did'nt see any breaking of the rules specifically, he was not following The spirit of the forum.

And this is the single biggest issue I have. Members (and even some admin - there, I said it) that are posting offensive or 'flame bate' posts and generally upsetting large numbers of members (some very long term) without 'technically' breaking the rules.

If a poster (regardless of status), constantly offends members (deliberatley or otherwise), is it worth losing popular and great contributing members?

As an example only, If AMoffat (sorry Moff - just an example ) was upsetting members with his posts, while staying within the forum rules, should we leave the forum or should he be banned. IMHO, these ppl should be warned and then banned if required. The Spirit of the forum should be placed above any specific member.

If large numbers of members found me offensive (que Moffat response), I would be happy to be banned and move on.

Can someone tell me what can be done in this situation?

Wrex, that's a very good point.

And, as we are encouraged to give ideas, in this matter, I can suggest an idea about this. Not a original one, and to be true, not even my idea, but I think it can work.

Why not some kind of petition ? A statement with a number of members signatures, explaining the reasons for that action ? The minimal signatures filled and an agreement of one or more administrators, the member in question will be banned.

That's a democratic way, and guarantee that the person is really breaking the stablishment, offending such a number of members in his behaviour.

Just a thought.

[Murph]

"the system" in place seems to have worked.... Over the couple of years I've been posting I can only recall a handfull of posters being banned, including the most current one. I agree with eatapc's view on how one should deal with those type of posters (and R's addendum to eatapc's list). I do not believe a petition (a vigilance committee ?) is a good idea at all. For starters.....who would "police" the police ?.....and more importantly to my fragile self-esteem....even "sweet little ole me" probably would get voted off the island down the road......though I could then agree with that greatAmerican philosopher Groucho Marx......"I would never join a club that would have me as a member"...........

hmmmmm....now......what is the maximum number of posters that one can place on his/her ignore list ?

take care all

Murph

[Raoul Duke]

For the most part, I like this site, it's a good place to have intelligent, mature and well imformed disscussions about auto racing and other things.

My main beef, though,(and I have been very vocal about this before) is with the few people on here who are always rude and obnoxious with people who don't share their opinions. The problem with rules is that, often, there are loopholes(ways of getting around them based purely on technicality). Although the rules say "insult and abuse free forum" it techincally says nothing about how far one is alowed to go when dissagreeing with the opinions of another. So even though someone may say to someone else, "your opinions are rubish", "you know nothing about auto racing", etc, etc, this person is still "techincally" abiding by the rules because he is not personally insulting that person, simply attacking his opinions(but at an unnaceptable level, IMO).It has been my experience that if you want a civilised envirement you have to have strict rules and you need to ENFORCE those rules on a consistent basis withought letting little techincalities stand in the way(I can't say that enough). Otherwise people are liable to take matters into their own heads with regards to how far they are alowed to go when dissagreeing with the opinions of another.

That is my one and only critism of this site. All in all I really think it's a good site and think higly of it.

[Liz]

Hmm, some very interesting suggestions in here, and this thread shows the inherent strength in 10-Tenths - we can discuss things in a rational way and "brainstorm" our way to solutions like sensible people (mostly. )

The idea of a petition would, I think, lead to factionalism and cliques forming, which would pit us against each other. This happened on Another Forum devoted to Champ Cars which I used to belong to, and is not pretty. If the Admins are willing to listen to and consider all viewpoints, and people feel free to petition their grievances, we should be able to deal with most of the difficulties that come up. As Murph noted, we don't ban people often. But when you are banned Waffle you are banned, and coming back under another name is strictly prohibited. If you wish to discuss what got you banned (that is, your unacceptable behaviour), there is e-mail and you should use that.

When posting about Waffle's ban, I used the metaphor of the Local because the rules in effect in most Locals are undefined but well known by the people who are regulars there. The group keeps a lid on the membership by pointing out what has been called above "the spirit" of the group, and only those who refuse to conform are eventually shown the door. Most groups have a good deal of tolerance and can adjust to boisterous members and hotheads if they are amenable to backing off when necessary, that is when the group gets tired of their antics and tells them to cool their jets. A system is being created now that will help to define proper behaviour further, but no major crackdowns or rules changes are anticipated because we are capable in large part of policing ourselves.

Admins are not perfect either and don't hold ourselves out to be perfect, so any time you feel an Admin has violated the spirit of the place, do make sure you contact that Admin and point out the problem. We do take these things seriously and discuss them in the Staff forums. And we do appreciate the efforts of the membership at large to keep a lid on the people who would otherwise be driving off good and contributing people. This is not the Admins' site - it is everyone's site - and everyone has a hand in making it go smoothly.

[touringlegend]

I think the petition idea has potential, but how would you organise it? If you feel really strongly about a matter, I suppose you can contact an Admin.

[Bononi]

By the light of what Liz and Murph said, I'm a little confused. They had experienced that, so it's pretty different from theory.

The potential in that, maybe is the principle of a petition. If I'm expressing right, I did not think about anything previously organized like a comission, but when 4 or more people has the same complains about a member, and gather a minimal signatures with a reasonable explanation for doing that. This one has to be submited to 2 or more Administrators whose in a final judgement, decides to do it or not. So still the final word comes from administrators, and the role of the members is only to show how they feel about a certain member.

Again, it's only an idea, and as I said before, more experienced people in this matter, may have a better view of what it can become a "monster" to the forum...

[Crash Test]

The thing is though, that most of these people who get banned are very clear cut cases. As has been said before, much discussion goes into banning people behind closed doors, with input from all concerned staff members. If you guys have a problem with another member's behaviour, simply drop an admin a note, and they will get on top of it

[f1grandprixshop]

Originally posted by Hans.ca
Could you pleaaaaaaaaaaase make it so that even I can attach a photograph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i think you can attach photograph

[Valve Bounce]

I wasn't going to post anything here or even peruse this thread, but WREX asked me, so I'll just say it was a great post. I have my own thoughts which have been welling up inside me for over 4 weeks, but I think it's best to keep them to myself.

[Liz]

The difficulty I can see with the "petition" idea, to make it a bit clearer perhaps, is that it would be possible for a group to take a dislike to someone who is following all the rules but whose point of view goes against their own; for example, someone who is an ardent communist and attaches his viewpoint to threads where it doesn't necessarily add anything to the conversation - not against the rules at all - but say a group of people decide that as capitalists they find this person's continued presence unacceptable and they get 10 people to sign a "petition" to present to the admins. Quite rightly the Admins tell them that this is not an indictable offence, although they appreciate that it's boring or even infuriating to the petitioners. Then the petitioners go on a crusade saying "The admins are unsympathetic to our cause, they won't act on our grievances, join the crusade to get Poster X banned (or the ideas of Poster X suppressed)!" Or perhaps Montoya fans submit a petition to have people who rubbish Montoya banned, or TGF fans present a petitition to stop us calling him TGF.

Pretty soon all we have time for is dealing with paperwork, and the majority of people are split into dissatisfied little groups glaring at each other from opposite sides of the room ... and the next thing you know we have a Free Fight on our hands.

I for one think that would be a troublesome road to travel.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Liz
I for one think that would be a troublesome road to travel.

I agree Liz. As much as I think something should be done, this would just start 'Witch hunts' and the like and would split the forum.

You'll probably note that my problem never came with a recommended solution, as I can't think of one that is totally acceptable. That said, maybe a tightening up of the rules may be needed, and more warnings issued. I think almost all of us (myself included) 'trip-up' on occassion and a warning from EERO got my attention. If it does'nt, you should'nt really be here anyway.

The best I can come up with, is if a member is reported with alarming regularity, it should be put to the staff/admin to vote on and action to be taken by them.

[Bononi]

Thanks Liz. That's what I needed.

I've never (seriously) had any trouble with members, even those who were banned, and to mention the last one, I've tried to alert him and unfortunately was too late.

Like I said it was just an idea, and I'm happy that it has been considered and evaluated by reasonable considerations...

Now... can we have a BEER ?????

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Bononi
Now... can we have a BEER ?????

Now this idea should be taken seriously

[eatapc]

Liz, thanks for being a good Federalist, protecting us from the "tyranny of the majority." From Federalist 51: "It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure." I don't know if the Capitalists or the Communists are the majority on our forum this week, but I don't want to find out the hard way.

Bononi, can I have a nice Shiraz instead of that beer?

[Liz]

Good thinking. I would also quote Lazarus Long, who said something like "A million men are smarter than one man? How's that again?"

The most important thing is that everybody has a clear idea where the line is, and everybody feels comfortable in pointing it out to those who step over it, whether they be admins or not - that is, without fear of being shouted at, called names or brushed off without a hearing. Usually it just takes a quiet word or even an "Erm, have a beer?" to let the transgressor know it's time to cool off. I know there are times when somebody hits a "hot button" of mine (e.g. jeering at my beloved Zonta) and I react with less than objective force, but I hope I have always apologized for it later when somebody has kindly told me to go and boil my head.

While we don't have a formal petition policy, everybody is free to petition his or her grievances and guaranteed a fair hearing.

And just as an aside, I am not picking on the communists. While I disagree with what they say, I will defend to my death their right to be completely wrong at the tops of their voices.

[Bononi]

Originally posted by Liz
And just as an aside, I am not picking on the communists. While I disagree with what they say, I will defend to my death their right to be completely wrong at the tops of their voices.

sshhhh... sshhhh... Don't speak so loud !!!

Brett can hear you, and give us one of those looong speeches !!!

[worried]

It is a great place this. It has a lot of informative people on it and some great subjects.
The biggest thing that i think needs improving is the amount of time some members are on here for just causing trouble and dont get removed. People like Ray Bell and AGGY should have been banned long ago. Ray cannot contol himself and seems to upset the majority of the forum, whilst AGGY is just an idiot.
Well thats my bit, keep up the good wok.

[f1grandprixshop]

Originally posted by worried
It is a great place this. It has a lot of informative people on it and some great subjects.
The biggest thing that i think needs improving is the amount of time some members are on here for just causing trouble and dont get removed. People like Ray Bell and AGGY should have been banned long ago. Ray cannot contol himself and seems to upset the majority of the forum, whilst AGGY is just an idiot.
Well thats my bit, keep up the good wok.

i think this forum needs people like AGGY too, to bring balance to arguments, pros and cons don't get me wrong, i'm not an anti-JPM hehehe