Open Wheel Division on the Forum

[JohnSSC]

And I will repeat: I think the mods do a terrific job here. We don't really notice them which I think tells a lot about how well you all function. I cannot complain of heavy-handedness or micro-managing.

There is just one thing: I keep finding these bruises that correspond in size and shape to that which one commonly finds with a baseball bat. I wonder...

[garcon]

That'll be Moffy - he keeps pinching Wrex's bat when he's not looking...

Oh, and no, we don't want that in Parc Ferme, thanks!!

[JohnSSC]

OK, we have had some great posts here so far and I would like to keep the conversation going.

I am open for suggestions here then as well. As race fans, how can we best utilize the Forums to achieve a sense of "detente" and be able to move away from such a rigid division?

As we have seen, there are a number of times when the lines blur with teams/drivers moving to and fro. How willing are we to tolerate a little "Series Creep" if you will?

For example, I got all carried away just now in the CC Forum with my CART memories and posted something about the Clark/Hill win in '65 & '66. They were truly seminal in the development of the cars we eventually saw in CART but not many go to the Historic Forum who are current fans - know what I mean?

Cheers!

[garcon]

One little 'trick' I'm quite fond of is to open a thread, such as the one you describe John, in a popular forum - like CC - then after a while move it (with a redirect) to a more relevant but quieter forum. This has the double benefit of ensuring more readers in the first place, and also hopefully introducing members to forums they may not normally visit.

[Dov]

I'm posting this here just in case it is deleted in the ChampCar forum.........

Hey John, No offense but if you are still enthralled with the indy 500, I would be happy to direct you to the IRL forum.

I know all about the 500 and the Champ Cars history together.......from 1911 to 1995......it USED to be one of my favourite races! IMO this topic has been done to death in this forum and it no longer has any relevance here!!! BTW, why couldn't Marcus post this thread on Monday or Tuesday instead of posting it in the middle of the CCWS race weekend :confused:

[macdaddy]

Dov's above post is evidence of the problem at hand. I'm not trying to single him out in any way, but IMO by posting that he's done so himself.

Also from Dov:
I don't care if this is the month of May...this is a ChampCar race weekend and here we go with ANOTHER indy 500 thread...UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Reply from JohnSSC:
No offense but one could always just not read the thread...

And a reply from Jordi:
Dov, you don't need to be so negative, this is not a thread that it's attacking CART in any way, so let it be

My sentiments exactly, John and Jordi.

[racinthestreets]

I think that as long as a post has something to do with Champ Cars past, present or future it should survive. The 500, not only has the historic involvement of Champ Cars, but a team and driver from CCWS are entered. That is enough for me IMO. If a thread survives it does so because it has interest. As said by John, if you don't like the thread don't read it - that works for me.

[JohnSSC]

Dov:

Thank you for being willing to post your thoughts here. However I may view them I appreciate your willingness to continue the discussion here.

macdaddy, thanks for the cut and paste - that will save time in referencing things!

First and foremost I can honestly say I am not "enthralled" with The 500. Terms being thrown about like that though are the main difficulty in posting anything on the CC Forum. Answers are typed based not on what the previous poster wrote but more on an emotional reaction to the poster, i.e. he/she is for/against. If the poster is considered "against" OWRS than the response is something along the lines we have seen here in this thread with an earlier post from Liz and now this from Dov (and I am not attacking anyone here - just footnoting my position - but if the mods feel I am over the line than I understand).

As a poster, I now feel that rather than continue the conversation I have to explain that I am not "enthralled," a "doom & gloomer" nor a "Greek Chorus." It is almost as if there is a subset of members who are acting as "monitors" to enforce their particular idiom of what they feel (and this is a key word here as it registers the emotional, not rational) should be the topic, tone and content of the various threads within the Forum.

To me, this is what marcus, macdaddy, jjspierx & Down F0rce are there to do. And as noted above by me and others if you do not feel that the subject/direction of a thread is not adding anything to your day, then ignore it!

My plea is to allow (please) the conversation to flow just as conversations do in person.

[GP Racer]

Just in case there was any doubt about what you were talking about John, along comes Dov to clear it up!

Like I said, there dedication is admirable, but often over-the-top...

[Dov]

John, I got up this morning, had my breakfast as usual and then I came on the 10/TENTHS CC forum only to see another 500 thread. I know how important the indy 500 was to the Champ Car World Series and I respect that!!! Hell, I used to watch all the great 500 races that you did, but for me now the indy 500 only brings up harsh feelings of TG, the split and how he tried to get rid of my favourite series this past winter. Maybe you guys are right, I could just pass by the "indy 500" thread without reading it, but am I not allowed to browse the CC forum everyday without having to be reminded of the IRL or am I asking too much??

BTW, some of you guys forgot that I started a thread last summer in the IRL forum called "One United Open Wheel Racing Series"......both the Snout and I wanted to get Open Wheel racing fans from both the CC and IRL forums to unite together and discuss their thoughts and views on a possible reunification between the CCWS and the IRL. However, most people bickered about the venues, the car specs and most importantly, who would run this untided series!

Soon after that somebody on the CC forum started a petition to see if OW racing fans wanted to reunite the two series and (only) just under 130 fans signed it, including myself!!

I grew up watching the best Open Wheel Racing Series in the world!!! It was called the PPG Indy Car World Series (ChampCars)!!! We had the best drivers & teams......the Andretti's, Unser's, Fittipaldi's, Foyt's, Villeneuve's, Mears, Rahal, Sullivan, Mansell, Tracy, Fangio #2, Goodyear, Johannson, Vasser, Fernandez, Blundell, JJ Lehto (post-95) Zanardi, Moore, Montoya, Franchitti, de Ferran, Catro-Neves, Team Penske, Team Gurney, Pat Pattrick Racing, Bentenhaussen Racing, Walker Racing, Newman-Haas Racing, Dale Coyne Racing, Rahal/Letterman Racing, Player's Racing, Team Green and so on and so on.....

I loved the diversity of the venues! The INDY 500, Cleveland, Surfer's Paradise, Milwaukee, Long Beach, Road America, Michigan, Laguna Seca, Phoenix, Mid-Ohio, Fontana, Toronto, Nazereth, Montreal, Louden, Vancouver, Mexico City, Brazil, England, Germany and Japan.

We had the sexiest cars (chassis/turbo engines) and the best manufacturer's in racing!

Since 1996, I've watched sponsors, manufacturer's, teams and drivers leave for TG's IRL. I don't care who's fault it is for the split anymore......be it TG or previous Champ Car CEO's. While the CCWS has tried to reconcile over the past few years with Tony to no avail, OW racing fans in North America continue to suffer!!!

Am I mad at TG for not trying to unite the two series again and for trying to put a final nail in ChampCars coffin?? You bet I am, but most of all I am very tired of the whole situation and want it to be resolved as soon as possible!!

How can we expect TG and OWRS to sit down and work out their differences when we can't even do the same???

[Peter Mallett]

Hmm,

Indy 500. A race for champions and I'd like to name a few but I've no doubt I'd miss loads. However a great race that is continued in whatver code it runs this year.

Why do we need to differentiate because of code? It's a race godammit. It's blokes like we'd like to be, running at speeds we want to run at.

Can't see the problem.

[macdaddy]

If only it were that limited, Peter.
It's not just the Indy 500. It's anything that has even the slightest series crossover.

[JohnSSC]

Dov, I think in many ways you have answered your own questions with that rundown of some truly magnificent race teams/drivers!

It hurts to not have a Series of that quality in North America, doesn't it? I miss it and the venues, a great deal. It hurts more I think to have a bunch of people who bottom line just love racing constantly sniping at each other over who did what to who over the course of now almost TEN seasons worth of racing. In the CC forum particularly we spend far less time talking about the actual racing than we do about all of the slights real and perceived by this owner, that driver, this CEO that CEO etc.

Perhaps that is what we really need: A Forum devoted to Snubs, Slights, Theories and Machinations. Then the rest of us can talk about the racing.

Mr. Mallett was quite correct, The 500 is a race and boy if someone gave me the opportunity to run in it I wouldn't care if it was run by my ex-wife, I would go!

Dov, I did by the way participate a bit in your joint thread and I thought it was a terrific idea then and still do now. It is a shame that some folks used it to continue the arguement. A few people with an agenda hijacked what could have been (and it did have some real positive moments in it) and ran off with it.

Maybe some of us just don't want to argue anymore. Maybe those that do need to find some other way to vent their ill-feelings about the whole scene.

[mountainstar]

I don't think most are interested in arguing about it anymore, just look at the tv figures.

After what happened last winter with TG backhanding OWRS, I don't think OWRS is interested in coming to the table anymore and as we have seen by his actions TG is certainly not interested. Therefore until either runs out of money, we are going to have 2 series. So people can jump up and down about it all they want but that's just the way it is and none of us can change it.

It's a war now between both parties and as far as forums go there are radical partisans on either side and sometimes emotions are involved. It's nice to place yourself above the debate, but everyone here has some agenda, otherwise they would not be here. If people want to talk split topics, I think they should be kept to their own threads and everyones opinion should be respected as long as they can back it up with some logic or facts. People who just come in here to flame are not needed.

[marcus]

Ive been thinkiong about my reply for half an hour now.

This was not my intention when I posted the threads I did.

why couldn't Marcus post this thread on Monday or Tuesday instead of posting it in the middle of the CCWS race weekend

Dov I dont think there is anything I have to apologise for It doesnt matter when things get posted , seriously that statement is a little over the top my friend.

I grew up watching the best Open Wheel Racing Series in the world!!! It was called the PPG Indy Car World Series (ChampCars)!!! We had the best drivers & teams......the Andretti's, Unser's, Fittipaldi's, Foyt's, Villeneuve's, Mears, Rahal, Sullivan, Mansell, Tracy, Fangio #2, Goodyear, Johannson, Vasser, Fernandez, Blundell, JJ Lehto (post-95) Zanardi, Moore, Montoya, Franchitti, de Ferran, Catro-Neves, Team Penske, Team Gurney, Pat Pattrick Racing, Bentenhaussen Racing, Walker Racing, Newman-Haas Racing, Dale Coyne Racing, Rahal/Letterman Racing, Player's Racing, Team Green and so on and so on.....

well then , UMMMMM you see this is what I started the thread about in the CART forum , why couldnt you post something like that and move on ?

you are well informed , passionate and dedicated and that is the spirit I wanted to convey in the thread.

Yes it is the month of May and whether you like it or not the race is on , under a different structure , My intentions were not biased in any at all I thought it would be a way to only slightly unite the two forums by a common theme , The Indy 500 , anyone could post on either thread of their best memories and we could all relive those memories and enjoy a civil chat about the race past and present in the respective forums.

I dont think I need to say anymore.

[Dov]

I just wish the fans could do something about the split, John. The only problem is that open wheel racing fans (OWRF) in North America are divided because they all have their own preconceived notions of what they think a united racing series should look like.

IMO these are the different types of OWRF we have in North America:

(1)IRL fans who are only interested in ovals and want nothing to do with road or street courses. They also have a REAL connection with the INDY 500.

(2)OWRF who enjoy both IRL and ChampCar racing and would rather keep on watching two very average series instead of uniting both of them and have one quality series made up of the best teams & drivers from both series.

(3)IRL fans who feel it would be better to reunite the series.

(4)Younger ChampCar fans who have only been watching racing since the split and who feel that only oval racing is dangerous and therefore want nothing to do with the IRL and they also don't realize that the diversity of venues is what made CC's what it is today.

(5)Long time CC fans who grew up with the diversity and the INDY 500, but they wouldn't trust TG if their lives depended on it and feel that OWRS should take the CCWS in another direction.

(6)Long time CC fans who are still VERY weary of TG, but think it's in everybodys best interest if the CCWS and the IRL reunited. I fall into this category.

And this only skims the very surface of the problems regarding the IRL and Champ Cars!!

[marcus]

that may be all well and good BUT that doesnt mean that OUR 2 forums cant get along , you say you want unification but yet are not willing to budge on a thread that discusses the indy 500 ?

[Dov]

Originally posted by marcus
that may be all well and good BUT that doesnt mean that OUR 2 forums cant get along , you say you want unification but yet are not willing to budge on a thread that discusses the indy 500 ?

Marcus, lets say that our 2 forums got along for the past 6 months but what do you think would have happened if TG had won the Court proceedings? Just remember a few things here...... TG was trying to get rid of my favourite series!! How would you react if you were in my shoes? you are a fan of both series and I only care for the CCWS. IT's CC's who have lost the teams, drivers and manufacturer's to the IRL.........I wonder how you would feel?!

[JohnSSC]

Problem is Dov that due to the nature of the game we as fans can't, it seems. People don't really attend IRL races but (so far) they have a better TV package. People do go to OWRS races and they have a crappy TV package.

Our problem as fans is that if we continue arguing with each other over who kicked oil dry in whose face first rather than writing, calling and emailing the IRL and OWRS and making our desire known to have just one series, then one day we will wake up and there will be no race on Memorial Day weekend and the only open wheel series in the USA will be USAC midgets (NOT that that would be a bad thing!!).

Maybe the fans CAN do something but the fans can't even be consistently civil here or even participate in a thread like you could have with the terrific response you had above and instead chose to be annoyed with a 500 thread in the CC forum.

[Wrex]

Ok, I think I've read enough of this.


For the record, I'm not up to date with the goings on in CART and IRL, and have only a passing interest in the politics involved. I've watched many CART races, and TBH like most outside of the US, I have little to no interest in oval racing.

Now to the point, and I'll try to keep this simple. Not only do I not know the politics thats going on, I dont care!


I dont care why they split, I dont care what TG has/has'nt done, I dont care whats involved with the tracks, teams, driver staying, going or changing. I dont care if CART fans dont like the Indy 500, I dont care if IRL fans dont like CART.

Why dont I care? Because it has nothing to do with the behavior we expect at ten-tenths. There must be hundreds of CART/IRL/OWR forums out there for you kiddies to war on each other. www.google.com Go find one.

This BS IS going to stop. 2 choices. Get a life, accept some things are beyond your control, and start enjoying your racing. Come here, make new friends, and discuss it with fellow petrol heads (lets face it there are'nt enough in real life).

Or, if your into this BS, and cant behave like adults, and want to argue and **** and moan. You can either leave, or be pushed.


I'm not directing this at anyone particular, and dont want members to leave. However my interest here is keeping our mature good natured members happy, not the trolls. If we are left with 10 great members in each forum, IMO thats better than 100 children that need to get outside more.

Please excuse me being direct, but I dont like ambiguity. Hopefully, we are all clear now.

[marcus]

AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dov]

I thought that this thread was started so fans from both forums could come together and discuss the problems between us and between our series in an adult manner? Please don't bite my head off, I'm asking you an honest question.......

[Wrex]

As mentioned Dov, most here have already gone off on a tangent about who's fault it is, or why the animosity exists.

At the end of the day, we dont care. All that needs to be said here is fans from each series need to respect the others point of view (like it or not) and accept they will not like or agree with everything they read.

They should continue on in their life rather than posting counter-flame or bad mouthing the other. We are adults here, not children.

[JohnSSC]

Wrex:

I like direct and that you are. Thank you for summing things up. I have no problem whatever with those rules and if I don't follow them, have no problem being reminded that I should! They are rules I have tried to live by here. They are fair rules as well.

I hope that my desire for that type of discussion has come through here, and I hope that I will be participating in that type of discussion in the various Forums here in the future.

10-Tenths is still to me the best place to have those discussions.

.

[The Snout]

If I may offer something. Some users want a clinical debate, others want a clubhouse where the atmosphere is pro Champ Car. Myself, I only check by here to see if there's any news, I don't post here anymore simply because the CC forum has become less and less clubhouse like. I prefer a forum that's pro series rather than a forum that caters to everyone, just my preference.

So I suggest that this change in the CC forum over the last 2 years or so from being a clubhouse type atmosphere to now a more formal atmosphere is causing the issue as the forum tries to find what it is, clubhouse for fans or a debating society of CC. As I said I opted out for another forum elsewhere which suits my tastes, not necessarily because things are bad in Ten Tenths CC forum, just because the atmosphere had changed and it no longer caters to me.

Hope there's something in my experience that adds a piece to your puzzle. Take Care.