BTCC vs Aussie V8s

tickfordchick · 30 Mar 2001, 03:41 (Ref:83506)

I'm just curious ... it's true that the V8 Supercar Shell series is without a doubt the most competitive and interesting touring car championship in the world right now ... IMHO, at any rate ... and that fact makes me wonder why there aren't more topics related to the Supercars AND why there aren't more Aussies posting in here ... just curious, as I said.

Crash Test · 30 Mar 2001, 03:53 (Ref:83471)

Good Question

There are a lot of Aussies floating around in here at 10-10ths, but perhaps the overwhelming number of BTCC type threads is discouraging us Aussies from posting more. Hopefully we can do something about it in the future.

Would the rest of you support splitting the forum up into Europe/Australia parts?

Buckshot · 30 Mar 2001, 04:21 (Ref:83479)

Yes !

V8 Supercars should have it's own Forum !

Ray Bell · 30 Mar 2001, 07:08 (Ref:83513)

Well, here's another Aussie just started posting in here... and I have so little interest in these abberations called Supercars that I'd rather have no part in it.

They have taken away all that was interesting and varied in Australian Motor Racing, dominating the scene to their own financial ends.

There are so many other categories that need support and fostering, but they have bled the promoters dry, the public know of nothing else...

It's a very poor state of affairs.

But normal for those who've only been around ten or fifteen years.

tickfordchick · 30 Mar 2001, 12:26 (Ref:83507)

Quote:

Originally posted by Crash Test
Good Question Would the rest of you support splitting the forum up into Europe/Australia parts?

what a good idea!! yeah, I'm all for that ...

Buckshot · 30 Mar 2001, 12:26 (Ref:83480)

I'll watch anything race on 4 wheels - I'm not just into the V8s. If the Super Tourer field in Australia was more competitive I'd watch that (I still watch them anyway to tell the truth). Even 99 was an interesting year for that series with Morris, Volvo and Audi in the fight but now...well you know what I mean.

Seems now that if any category wants a chance to survive it needs to hitch itself to the V8 circus. Will be interesting to see how the Pro-car rounds do by themselves.

I think I misunderstood the above question to, not a V8 Supercar only forum but an Australian Touring Car forum would be good.

tickfordchick · 30 Mar 2001, 12:34 (Ref:83508)

Quote:

Originally posted by Buckshot
not a V8 Supercar only forum but an Australian Touring Car forum would be good.

yep, definately!!

Ray Bell · 30 Mar 2001, 14:08 (Ref:83514)

Good, that adds a bit of variety, and makes it less of a closed shop... and these blokes get a look in, too:

**touringlegend** · 30 Mar 2001, 17:57 (Ref:83500)

No offence to any V8 supporters, but I too think your championship should have its own forum, as V8s have never really been of interest to me. It'd be much easier to come in here and not click on a thread that is something to do with V8s. I don't see Formula 1 being grouped in with all the other single seater championships, so why should Touring cars be different?

Buckshot · 30 Mar 2001, 18:02 (Ref:83481)

So what do we do to make this happen ?

How do we get a forum just for Aussie Touring Car discussion ?

TimD · 30 Mar 2001, 19:16 (Ref:83478)

I've changed my mind on this.

At first, I thought it was a natural division to separate V8 Supercars from this forum. But now -

now I'm wondering more and more if Super Tourers aren't the cul-de-sac in motor sport development. V8, ST, GpN, GpA are all different facets of the same branch of the sport.

And if I'm not well up on V8s, it's not for lack of interest. It's just so difficult to follow what's going on with them when there's so little coverage of them outside Oz.

I would probably find myself reading a Supercar forum more than I would the 2-litre edition!

By the way, Ray, I can't necessarily agree with you on the V-8's of course, but I certainly appreciate the more traditional touring car types. Now, what on earth is that little white car with the back end off a Wolseley 1500??

Emfa · 30 Mar 2001, 20:36 (Ref:83511)

Log one more Aussie who has just joined and would support a separate Touring Car forum. Don't know how much I could contribute now that I'm based in the States, but it sure would be REAL helpful in being able to keep up with what is going on at home.

While it sounds like a good idea, I suspect that we would need a LOT more support/subscribers to justify a split. How many others are out there who would support this?

redshoes · 30 Mar 2001, 20:51 (Ref:83463)

This has been discussed amongst the staff recently. The feeling was that we would need to be sure there would be enough interest. On the basis of this thread I would say it's looking good so far.

**Craig** · 30 Mar 2001, 21:05 (Ref:83453)

How about we put it to the vote ? I've added a voting form to the top of this topic... use it to cast your vote

Ray Bell · 30 Mar 2001, 23:52 (Ref:83515)

TimD, I've grown up in motor racing through the very era that saw the emaciation of the Racing Car and the favour of the limelight granted to the Touring Car.

Moreover, the V8 Supercar push has denuded all other categories of any real promotion or public display outside of race meetings, and we now have some fantastic cars of all classes racing for nothing against themselves at deserted circuits.... enough spectators to help put the cars on the trailers at the end of the day.

I'm sure David would agree with this, although in Historics there is a lot more interest...

In this minefield we have an attitude among promoters that they can make big bucks out of the V8s, so why bother doing anything for the other categories. I must say, there are some exceptions, Wakefield Park and Winton standing out among them, and possibly the new management at Willowbank (ugh!), and of course at Mallala, and Wanneroo where they have no alternative...

So everybody races at Club meetings all year round, never gets before a serious audience unless they have a car that's judged worthy of being in a support race at a V8 meeting, never has a chance to impress a sponsor, and they still have to wear the same racewear as Michael Schumacher!

The CAMS have sold off the rights to the V8s to AVESCO, and for a relatively paltry amount, so they no longer get any income to run their top-heavy organisation from this lucrative area, but more cost burdens are loaded onto the club competitor, who has just been told by the same august body about that racewear requirement...

So ask me, please, what I have against this category. Sure, the racing's great, closer than any we've seen virtually ever, with good control over marque supremacy and good reliability.

But where is the rest of Australian racing? Where are the openwheelers (apart from Formula Ford)? Where are Sports Cars? What about the Gold Star, who hears about that these days?

We lost the Tasman Cup to this same shift of interest, when it all boils down, and the enthusiasts who want to go racing now are obliged to put up with these unsatisfactory conditions in order to do so.

Historic Racing is almost all that's left, from a satisfaction point of view.

Soap box time over for now.

And Tim, the white car is the big-selling version of that model in Australia, unique to our market, I think (not sure about NZ), the Morris Major. There was also an Austin Lancer in the same mould, and they got new sheetmetal front and rear in about 1960 to look more like the Farina Oxford/Cambridge line.

Later the Major continued alone with a 1622cc engine and was dubbed the Major Elite, ran to about 1964, supplanted by the Morris 1100. Do you want to know about iron diff housings and the Austin Freeway too? Fine spline axles?

By the way, these colour pics are from recent Historic meetings and were taken by Peter Schell... P.O. Box 67, Liverpool NSW 2170... 02 9602 5317... thought I should put that in to save him the trouble of complaining about copyright!

Here's a mixture of some Yankee iron at Oran Park:

mtpanorama · 31 Mar 2001, 00:51 (Ref:83492)

Yes. Definatley split the 2 catagories. I love V8 supercars and I dont mind the 2 litres, but it would be so much easier looking for V8 threads if they wernt mixed in with the 2 litre stuff.

Buckshot · 31 Mar 2001, 01:24 (Ref:83482)

In regards to the poll - add a question.

Should there be an Australian Touring Cars Forum ?

(Not just a V8 one)

In an Australian Touring Car forum we could discuss our V8 Supercars, the Super Tourers and also the Pro-car series and even Commdore Cup - how good where they on Speedweek over the summer ?

Even though they're not touring cars maybe even Formula Holden , the ARC and our local Formula Ford series could be discussed in here as well...would be handy to just have a place where we know all the discussion is Aussie motorsport.

marcus · 31 Mar 2001, 02:00 (Ref:83467)

I agree that we need our own forum for V8's but adding other classes is not a good idea..reasons to follow...but with this forum we could include V8 Supercars,Konica V8's Future tourers and our own super tourers and I would stop it at that.

the reason i say limit it to these categories is that we dont want to deter other people from joining in our topics of conversation and if we included all classes in this "new forum" it wouldnt be fair to say the Historic or junior classes forum...just look at the Formula Holden topic in the Junior forum..several non Aussies have joined in the conversation.

I say yes we need a V8 forum but I say no to adding anything but the V8 classes and classes generally know as "Touring"

TheDevil · 31 Mar 2001, 02:49 (Ref:83504)

Hi!

--Ray Bell--

The V8 supercars are huge in Australia because people love it!!! get lost with all your rubbish about them depriving other forms of motorsport in Australia. The V8's are popular cause they are exciting! And i will not sit here and listen to you try to make me feel guilty for watching the best touring car series in the world!!!

I would love to see a seperate V8 forum also!!

Seeya!

Crash Test · 31 Mar 2001, 04:11 (Ref:83472)

To add a little balance to Ray's arguement, he is dead right, the V8s have suffocated many of the lower classes of the sport. And there are stats to prove it.

Also some of the best racing I have ever seen has been from the Historic Group N boys and girls... I really do wish I came into the earth a whole 25 years before I did- I couldn't start to imagine what these cars would have been like on the tyres of the day...

Saying that, V8s are what the people like, the sound good, they look fantastic, and every so often they can put on a brilliant race. Look at the Konica meeting, race 3 at Lakeside last year (sorry I keep bringing it up

). A real David Vs Goliath, fight to the end- not too many guys have the bravery to be rubbing panels at 220km/h, especially at a place like Lakeside.

Now my life is devoted to promoting state level racing, and i guess the best example to all you folk on the net would be at http://www.qrda.asn.au. What we've found over the years is that you have to strike a balance between club motorsport and V8s. We have a dedicated local audience, and then we have the masses who come in for things like the V8 Tipping Comp. Hopefully, these people will stay, and look around at what the lower classes of the sport have to offer.

kmchow · 31 Mar 2001, 08:05 (Ref:83462)

NO way? I love the variety of touring cars, from DTM, V8 and even my much beloved ST cars!! PLEAAAAASE,DON'T SPLIT US UP!!!

**Craig** · 31 Mar 2001, 09:14 (Ref:83454)

Seems to be a pretty popular suggestion then...

This leaves us with a few questions:

How exactly will we split the forum ?
What will each forum be titled ?
How will we handle existing topics ?

My suggestion would be two forums in place of the current one: European Touring Cars and Australian Touring Cars. The European TC forum would be for chat and debate on all Euro classes such as BTCC, DTM, ETCC, etc. whilst the Aussie forum would be for chat on the various V8 classes.

I don't know enough about the structure of the Aussie sport to know whether their ST cars should fit in the main TC forum, or be included in the National And Club Racing forum on this site ? Maybe someone could post their thoughts on this ? Historics should definately be posted in the Historic Racing and Racing History forum...

The real question which remains is what we will call these new forums, and how they will be described in their forum description. The idea of a Euro and Aussie forum seems to work pretty well, but has it's problems - for example, if we call the Euro forum the European Touring Car forum, we run the risk of it appearing to be solely about the ETCC... any thoughts ?

Finally, how do we handle the older topics in this existing forum ? Due to the current forum being so BTCC orientated, I would simply rename that forum as the Euro forum and add a new forum for the Aussie stuff alongside it. This means that the existing posts would remain in the new Euro forum...

I would need a volunteer who would need to go throught the past 2-3 months of topics, weed out any V8 topics, and move them to their new forum. Older topics can be considered as 'dead' and may as well be left where they are.

Please post your thoughts on my post here folks, thanks!

Airhead · 31 Mar 2001, 10:08 (Ref:83487)

I've watched this one from afar and now feel able to contribute to the discussion.

I think (for what it is worth) that the catch all Australian Touring Car forum is a good idea. It should publicise other forms of tin top racing among Australian fans who currently follow the V8's. People may then realise that the most fun can be had for less cost (either as a spectator or a competitor) - and perhaps the brightest light hides the truth in it's glare.

The V8's are about entertainment, channel 10 style. Having the telecaster buy into the series is in my view a corrupting influence. The guys at 10 are not motorsport journos, they are publicists. That I still watch the races in the hope a Ford will win shows both a triumph of marketing for them and a weakness of spirit on my part.

So, to splitting the forms - yes please Craig. And to Ray, welcome.

**Craig** · 31 Mar 2001, 10:17 (Ref:83455)

I wonder if you can give me a quick rundown of the classes you would like to see included, and their status, AM. For example, in the UK we have the BTCC which would be included in the Euro TC forum, whilst other tin top series such as Clios, Super Coupe Cup, etc. would be included in the National and Club Racing forum. Historic tin tops would be included in the Historic Racing and Racing History forum.

From where i'm sitting, the only confusion is to the status of series such as the ASTC... is this considered a premier series over there now, or has it been relegated to 'club racing' level ?? And what other series do you speak of ? Are they top level or clubbies ?

RALFANATOR · 31 Mar 2001, 10:17 (Ref:83505)

YES I think it should be split as v8's in oz have issue's that need fan input at the least so it would be good to have a forum for v8s as the btcc does get most of the space at 10/10ths . nice to see some aussies here to OZY OZY OZY!!

View Poll Results: Should this forum be split ?
Yes - we need a V8 and a BTCC forum	38	74.51%
No - it's fine as it is	8	15.69%
Don't care!	5	9.80%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Current BTCC drivers who raced in BTCC supporting series' before racing in the BTCC	Invincible	Touring Car Racing	18	27 Dec 2001 22:32