Datsun 240Z and FIA racing

[kickstart]

I have always like these cars and I think it is possible to build one to FIA spec for a good deal less than something like an E type.

My queries are hence - how well do they go in FIA spec ?

The other issue is whether one will get entries to do the events I would like to do such as the Spa 6 hours (it is in the invitation class) and Oldtimer GP.

Lastly do people think that the classic events which are presently mostly pre 66 will change to become pre 71 (excluding Goodwood for obvious reasons)

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by kickstart

I have always like these cars and I think it is possible to build one to FIA spec for a good deal less than something like an E type.

My queries are hence - how well do they go in FIA spec ?

The other issue is whether one will get entries to do the events I would like to do such as the Spa 6 hours (it is in the invitation class) and Oldtimer GP.

Lastly do people think that the classic events which are presently mostly pre 66 will change to become pre 71 (excluding Goodwood for obvious reasons)?

Not homologated until 1970 so they become G2 cars and frankly not very likely to become welcomed into the pre 66 type race meetings IMHOannd there does not seem very much evidence for the date moviing forward. With 110 entries for the Spa 6 hours pre 66 why would the organiser move the date?

[simon drabble]

in a slightly giulty pleasure way I have always thought Big Sam (was that what it was called?) was lovely. Did Wyn Percy race it in international events or was it just a national event car? Woudl something like that go with Masters in the CSL etc class? Good luck with the project I will look on with envy when its done

[John Turner]

Simon, you are not alone. Big Sam was great car. Always thought a road replica in that livery would be great fun.

[terence]

Exactly that was done quite a while ago John,I think the car was looked after by Tim Riley for a while until he upped sticks and left the country.

[Pretty Vacant]

I don't beleive if one was built to period spec as driven by Win it would be turned away in the Touring 70's grid! I think there is one coming up for sale at the auction in July at the Silverstone Classic, just seen the ad in Motorsport.
And another person owning up to wanting to see one out on track, coming from the West Country and remebering Win in one, it has to be done!

[terence]

That might even drag Spike back from Spain!

[Pretty Vacant]

Now that would be a thing!

[R59]

Wouldn't the pukka 240Z racer have a twin-cam engine on twin sidedraught Nikkei's

I keep thinking about a '69 Skyline GT-R, but can't find one at the right price!!

[PZR]

Originally Posted by kickstart

I have always like these cars and I think it is possible to build one to FIA spec for a good deal less than something like an E type.

My queries are hence - how well do they go in FIA spec ?

One of the problems for 'ultimate' FIA spec is that many of the parts are much harder to find than the equivalent spec level E type parts...

I'm thinking particularly of the FIA cylinder heads ( both the SOHC 'LY' Crossflow, and the E4621 'Safari' head ) which command huge prices even when they do change hands. The LY was occasionally run on carbs in period, but the E4621 was developed to work best with the ECGI injection system and suffers with its huge ports if used with carbs. You can build a 'normal' L24-based engine to a decent level, but it would be nothing like the spec of the original works circuit racers ( and therefore possibly planting a 'what if' niggle in your head....? ).

I've not seen an 'ultimate' spec period-correct FIA car built outside Japan yet. Would be nice to see one....

Originally Posted by R59

Wouldn't the pukka 240Z racer have a twin-cam engine on twin sidedraught Nikkei's

I believe you're thinking of the PS30 model 'Fairlady Z432', with the 24 valve S20 twin cam six ( or, better, the PS30-SB model super-lightweight 'Fairlady Z432-R' ) which had triple 40PHH Mikuni-Solex carbs as standard equipment, or Lucas-derived flat slide injection in works circuit racer guise. The Fairlady Z432 and Z432-R were on a different homologation to their sister '240Z' models.

Originally Posted by R59

I keep thinking about a '69 Skyline GT-R, but can't find one at the right price!!

Can I ask - how much are you looking to pay?

[terence]

There is one for sale in Holland,lovely car had lots of work done and up to date, £80,000.

[simon drabble]

maybe I am missing the point but £80k sounds a lot....didn't one of the Samurai cars sell at Stoneliegh a couple years ago for £25k?

[PZR]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

....didn't one of the Samurai cars sell at Stoneliegh a couple years ago for £25k?

That particular car was a 'recreation' of something that was - how can I put this politely? - not really all that special in the first place... A road car with a few bells and whistles added to it.

People in the UK seem to automatically think of 'Samuri' ( sic ) when they think of these cars, when in fact the vast majority of Samuri Conversions cars were slightly tweaked road cars built well after the heyday of the cars they were based on. FIA ( and JAF ) competition cars were a whole different world away.

If the £80,000 FIA car was built by VA-Motorsport in Holland then it probably reflects the amount of work that went in it. Unfortunately the default mindset is that they 'must' be cheap, when in fact a good one will cost just as much to build as anything else, and some of the parts can be hard to locate ( and a bit more expensive than you might hope or expect! ).

I exclude 'Big Sam' from the rest of the Samuri Conversions pack, as it really is a unique case. Look out for a write-up by Mark Hales in the next issue of Octane magazine. If Bonhams secure a sale within the £40,000~£60,000 estimate at the Silverstone Classic, then - in my opinion - it may well turn out to be a bit of a bargain. It's several steps beyond FIA spec, but you'd have a hard time getting a similar car built professionally for that kind of money and of course 'Big Sam' has the interesting history too.

[simon drabble]

Is Big Sam coming up for auction?

[PZR]

Yes, sorry. Owner Nick Howell has entered it in the Bonhams auction at the Silverstone Classic:

[simon drabble]

wow - someone is going to be a very lucky bunny. Did it have any international history?

[PZR]

As the second iteration of 'Big Sam' ( or arguably the third... ), no. However, the current bodyshell had some international history as a Works rally car...

It's complicated!

[terence]

I wonder why Nick has changed his mind? I asked him a couple of years ago if he would consider selling,got a point blank NO.
Did quite a bit of work on Sam whilst Tim Riley was looking after it,it really is a nice car for that sort of money. Somehow I think it will go for a little more than expected!
I do know of a very nicely built 'Race' rolling shell that could possibly be for sale,still chasing it at present.

[PZR]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I wonder why Nick has changed his mind? I asked him a couple of years ago if he would consider selling,got a point blank NO.

I certainly don't think it's anything to do with the car. More a case of personal circumstances. Nick lives in Penzance, and told me he feels he does not use the car enough.

Ask me if I'd sell any of my cars now and you'll get a point blank NO too. Ask me in two years and who knows...?

[terence]

Yes,I am aware of Nick's whereabouts,he did have those concerns when I last spoke to him.I very much doubt that there would be ANYTHING wrong with Sam,knowing Nick,it'll still be in pristine condition,lets hope it goes to someone who will have the time to use it for what it was intended and not put up on a pedestal!

[Big Sam]

Interesting to see the comments about Big Sam. Yes it is for sale, finally, because I don't use it enough so it is now time, after 21 years, for someone else to have some fun.

When Tim Riley rebuilt it for me we used Francis Tuthill to jig the body shell as there were so many dents and dings from its rallying days we wanted to make sure it was straight. Instructions to Fran were to leave as many of those dents as he could and that has proved to be very useful in tracing back the shells history. It was built at the Obama factory in June 1972 with a series of left hand drive works cars which all have the special inner, thicker body pressings and lighter panels that all of the works cars had. Sam's shell, chassis no HLS30 94014, which is stamped into the bulkhead, also has some Japanese characters and numbers stamped into the off side, front suspension turret top. I took a "brass rubbing" of these a few years ago and sent them off with a letter to Nissan in Japan and asked them what they meant. A charming letter came back with the typical Japanese pleasantries of how pleased they were that I was enjoying their products and that they confirmed that the chassis number was one of their works rally cars; the Japanese characters were to do with export/Carnet conditions that had to be met when they allowed the cars in and out of Japan for International rally's. Wonderful; so my next letter was a thank you and could they tell me what rallies it did? Reply? Silence.

So history wise, using the dents and rare photos of stripped works shells, I now know that it was one of the cars sent to the '73 Monte, the Scottish and the Burmah rally's. From late July 1972, after it was built, to January '73 (Monte) there is more investigation to do and we have been looking at the '72 Southern Cross (two other cars were flown from there back to the UK), the Bandama rally and through the huge amount of other rallies that Datsun 240z's competed in.

In the UK, in 1974, the existing shell was the one that replaced Sam 1 (an even earlier works shell) after Win Percy wrote if off at Paddock bend at Brands Hatch. Within two weeks, Tivy Shenton from Specfab, Spike Anderson and other Ex Broadspeed men had repaired it and transferred the ex works parts from the Rob Grant car and had Sam back at Thruxton for the next round of the '74 Modsports Championship. After 10 rounds battling against the likes of Nick Faure in a Porsche 911S and later a brand new RS, Win won the Championship class.

The car now is as it was in 1974 with one improvement kept from the race series that it did in 1981 with Martin Sharp driving where it came second. All the original suspension pick up points are used it has the standard 240Z layout of Macpherson struts all round and a suspended diff.

I gave it to Mark Hales to have some fun around Goodwood in May this year and his seven report is now out in August's Octane. As we all know, Mark is a hugely experienced and talented driver. Within half a lap he knew that Sam's handling was special. He said "I was amazed by the stability through fast corners, amount of grip, sweet engine, wailing exhaust and swift shift". He didn't know that a few bystanders were also timing him and you could say that he had some fun as 1m 25.7s was one of the times. Not bad for an old Japanese rally car. My best is 1m 31s.

At the (old now) Silverstone National course Tony Dron could consistently put up 1m 3s and he has always told me that Sam is one of the best handling cars he has ever driven.

As to parts on Sam, well many are special works parts and by the way the cross flow heads weren't used much because they were unreliable. Though the engin is still 2.4 litres it pushes out 255 bhp in a car weighing 912kg. And this is using 20 year old electronics and tuning parts. Corner weights are outstanding; with a 75kg driver and half a tank of fuel there is 2kgs difference across the car. Balance is 49.5% front and 50.5% rear.

Datsun 240Z's were at Le Mans and competed in the European Touring Car Championship in 1975, Spa 24 hours and Zandvoort Trophy races as well as winning the SCCA championship two years running in the USA with Bob Sharp racing.

As a works 240Z it is one of only eight of the originals left. Three are in Nissan's old factory and as I said earlier, Nissan confirmed to me by letter a few years ago that it was one of their original works cars.

Tim Riley did a fantastic job rebuilding it in 1989 in the guise that I had first seen it, Big Sam, entered by a shoestring crew, competing and winning against the best that Europe could throw at it in 1974.

The new owner can use if for the Classic Le Mans, the Classic Touring Car Club race series or invites to other series where it may be invited to dice with Batmobiles and wide Escorts. Or they may want to put it back to classic rallying status. What will not change will be its history as a rally and race car and that rare and special bodyshell that contributes so much to its handling.

[terence]

Excellent post Nick,Sam is one of those very rare 'unspoilt history' versions,just those little scrapes,dents etc that usually are not acceptable to some owners,have thankfully been left alone,as they should be!.

[John Turner]

Great post, Nick, a copy of which will find ts way into the chassis archive when I get around to it.

[PZR]

Nick,
Having just had a quick chat with you on the 'phone, I post the below with your blessing:

Originally Posted by Big Sam

It was built at the Obama factory in June 1972 with a series of left hand drive works cars which all have the special inner, thicker body pressings and lighter panels that all of the works cars had.

The 'shell was put together at the Nissan Shatai plant in Hiratsuka, and then transported to the 'Nissan Sport' competitions department - part of the Oppama factory complex. It would have come out of Hiratsuka in June, and the build-up / modifications at Oppama - not forgetting a little testing and then inspection / Japanese registration etc - would have taken two or three months looking at other known examples.

The 'works' 240Z rally cars built in 1970 & 1971 used many of the special pressings of the super-lightweight Fairlady Z432-R model ( 25 of which were built and sold to satisfy the homologation requirements of the JAF 'GT' class ) and which were one gauge thinner than that of the standard production cars. These special panels included the roof, rear quarters, scuttle and front wings. One gauge thicker than stock pressings were made for certain structural areas of the body - especially around the diff. mountings, rear suspension mounting areas and the supports for the 100 litre fuel tank. Fibreglass doors, tailgate and bonnet were also used, with Plexiglass windows.

However for the 1972 season the FIA changed the regulations, and Nissan changed tack - building works rally 240Zs that used bodies of standard production gauge sheetmetal, and with no fibreglass panels or plexiglass windows. These proved to be more durable than the earlier 'shells, and the extra weight was slightly offset by improved power and - theoretically at least - greater reliability.

So the ex-works 'shell of 'Big Sam' - having been built well into the '72 season, and aimed at the beginning of the '73 season - is not one of the 'super lightweight' bodies. This does not diminish the fact that it was originally built as a full works 240Z rally car...

Originally Posted by Big Sam

Wonderful; so my next letter was a thank you and could they tell me what rallies it did? Reply? Silence.

I'm surprised that they admitted it was an ex-works car at all! Nissan Motorsport's honourary president Mr Yasuharu NANBA is well known in Japan for denying point blank ( despite very obvious examples to the contrary ) that any genuine ex-works rally 240Zs can exist in private hands to this day. It's all part of a big can of very old worms that's better not opened here, but suffice to say he's wrong - probably knows full and well that he's wrong - and is simply sticking to his story.

Originally Posted by Big Sam

So history wise, using the dents and rare photos of stripped works shells, I now know that it was one of the cars sent to the '73 Monte, the Scottish and the Burmah rally's. From late July 1972, after it was built, to January '73 (Monte) there is more investigation to do and we have been looking at the '72 Southern Cross (two other cars were flown from there back to the UK), the Bandama rally and through the huge amount of other rallies that Datsun 240z's competed in.

Nick - again, with respect - the history is far more simple and concise than this. The 'shell was from a car built in a batch destined for the '73 Monte Carlo Rallye. After the Monte it sat for a while before coming over to the UK and into the care of Old Woking Service Station on behalf of Nissan - still on its Japanese temporary-export 'carnet'-linked number plate. Yvonne Mehta drove it as a fast service car / chase car ( with a 'PRESS' sticker on the bonnet ) following Shekhar on the '72 Scottish Rally in one of its sister ex-Monte cars. Then Shekhar himself drove it on the '73 Burmah Rally, where he had an off which damaged the 'shell. It went back to OWSS and was part stripped to be assessed, and needed re-jigging. From then it embarked on a short career of British club rallying ( on a 'borrowed' identity..... ) which was over in the first half of 1974 - with the 'shell pretty baggy by that time but given one last whack in a testing off at Bagshot ( Shekhar again..... ). Stripped of many of its original works componentry it went down to Datsun UK at Worthing, not realising that it was just about to take on a new lease of life as an emergency replacement for Big Sam's original ( ex-Rob Grant, also ex-works ) 'shell. It saved Gathercole and Anderson the expense of buying a UK road car to use as a base for a replacement at a time when 240Zs were still fairly new and not cheap, and it appears they never actually realised that this too was an ex-Works 'shell. It's had a life, as they say....

Originally Posted by Big Sam

.....and by the way the cross flow heads weren't used much because they were unreliable.

Sorry, but with this I don't agree. Nissan's 'LY' crossflow heads were very powerful and reliable and won many events in circuit racing guise. In rallying use, it was actually Nissan's 'ECGI' electronic fuel injection - often used on the 'LY' heads - which proved troublesome in rally conditions. The 'LY' wasn't to blame. The 'normal' production non-crossflow SOHC - as seen on Big Sam - can give plenty of power anyway. Tim Riley's engine build for the car is a jewel...

I feel sure that 'Big Sam' will sell well, and I hope the new owner is going to have some fun!


All the best,
Alan T.

[Big Sam]

Brilliant; well done Alan. Interesting that your knowledge and research has shown that even Bob Gathercole, who I spoke to this morning, didn't even know that the shagged rally shell that they bought to replace Win's Brands Hatch write off of Sam 1 was a Works car.

It also dispels the myth completely, that has often been written up in the motoring press, that either of the Works shells of Sam 1 or the existing Sam 2 were anything to do with the Safari rallies.

Thanks.