Datsun 240Z and FIA racing

[andy97]

See this months Motorsport magazine for 240Z feature.

[z-spec]

If the £80,000 FIA car was built by VA-Motorsport in Holland then it probably reflects the amount of work that went in it. Unfortunately the default mindset is that they 'must' be cheap, when in fact a good one will cost just as much to build as anything else, and some of the parts can be hard to locate ( and a bit more expensive than you might hope or expect! ).

This car has been standing in a corner for a few years , And its NOT for sale , over the winter its gone have some modification to make it suiteble for circuit racing and to suit the homologated rim size.
For next year you wil see it in some MasterSeries races .

[Al Weyman]

Years ago a friend of mine had one of these I used to service for him it was running on triple side draughts. Not a bad car but I dont think in the same league as an E and I have driven both a few times. Then they made the 2+2 and another mate had one of those and was a sluggish dog of a car.

BTW as I recollect it had a straight six single overhead cam engine and not a twin cam or anything exotic.

[PZR]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Years ago a friend of mine had one of these I used to service for him it was running on triple side draughts. Not a bad car but I dont think in the same league as an E and I have driven both a few times.

Al,
Are you talking about road cars in the above?

No offence, but UK-based road cars are not very good character witnesses for the potential of a full-blown period-correct FIA / JAF Gr.4/5 race car with all the bells and whistles.

A works Gr.5 HS30 with Japanese drivers surprised quite a few people at Kyalami in 1973. Its sister car - a works Gr.4 HS30 with local drivers - wasn't too far behind either. This would be one of the very few times when a fully developed works circuit-racing S30-series Z travelled outside Japan.

I'd love to see something like that racing in Europe today, for the sake of variety if nothing else.

Cheers,
Alan T.

[Al Weyman]

Yes it was a road car but quite highly modified.

[240ZmanDP]

Al Weyman & others - it's a pity that you couldn't manage to blag a Road test in a properly set-up 240Z, such as the Road-going Samuri's.
With around 220bhp in a Bodyshell Homologated at 1,040Kgs, they can certainly hold off a standard E-type up to 100mph. And a whole lot cheaper to Restore & tune to a decent level of power.

Relatively inexpensive to tweak up to that spec., and in Race trim around 250bhp ( to FIA 2.4ltr Regs.), it's surprising that no-one has seriously campaigned one in International Historic events. The Silver example at the recent Le Mans Classic was a nicely presented car but nowhere near a lightweight, full-house Racer.

Nearer home, in HSCC 70's, Charles Barter's well-sorted and driven 240Z has had the measure of any E-type over the last few years.

Could it possibly be the subconcious prejudice against Japanese Sports Cars ?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by 240ZmanDP

Could it possibly be the subconcious prejudice against Japanese Sports Cars ?

Welcome, 240Zman. Certainly no prejudice in my corner but maybe a little bit of 'fear of the unknown'! If I wanted to build (for example) an MGB, TR or E Type racer there is a huge industry out there to supply parts, services, expertise etc. The amount of 'donor' road cars around to chose from would be a consideration, as well. Also not sure what 'FIA spec' is on 240Z (maybe it is on the thread somewhere), the period it was homologated in and which race series it would fit into? HSCC Roadsports is a done deal, but someone mentioned Masters events earlier- which of their series is it eligible for?

As a road car, the original 240/260 would be high on my shopping list if I wanted a 70s GT- especially with a set of genuine Minilites fitted! The cars country of origin wouldn't be of any consideration at all.

[andy97]

Producton 1969-1978. Post #2 refers to a homologation date of 1970.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by andy97

Producton 1969-1978. Post #2 refers to a homologation date of 1970.

I can't find the 1970 one but found these two:

5549 1 Nissan Datsun 240 K GT H(L)GC110 2393 01/02/1974
5558 1 Nissan Datsun 240 K GT Hardtop H(L)GC110 2393 01/03/1974

[PZR]

Model 'Datsun Sports 240Z H(L)S30' FIA homologation recognition number is 3023, with recognition valid from 1/4/70.

Production was started in October 1969, and minimum production of 500 cars required was reached in Nov. '69.

The '240K' homologations are for variants of the C110 Skyline range.

[PZR]

Originally Posted by 240ZmanDP

Al Weyman & others - it's a pity that you couldn't manage to blag a Road test in a properly set-up 240Z, such as the Road-going Samuri's.

Would that be with the full Samuri ( sic ) customer car spec of angle grinder-cut standard road springs, head 'ported' whilst still attached to the block and with Range Rover front calipers?

I had something a little more exotic in mind, but still

[240ZmanDP]

Yes, all of the above, Alan.

You might like to add the fact that the same guys beat the Works Porsche 911RS to a National Modsports Championship title in 1974.....

[PZR]

Originally Posted by 240ZmanDP

You might like to add the fact that the same guys beat the Works Porsche 911RS to a National Modsports Championship title in 1974.....

Duncan,
If you want to call that Porsche a "Works" car, you might have to concede that the 240Z used ( er, both of them in fact... ) could also be described as a "Works" car.

The truth was that the Porsche and the Z were based on somewhat used 'ex-Works' machines. I'm a fan of giant-killing too, but it grates to see so much being made of the Porsche at the same time as you hear the "we used to live in an 'ole in the road" type inverted snobbery from Samuri. I don't want to belittle it, but if you look at the results it was a bit of a patchy championship anyway. They did well, but had a fantastic talent behind the wheel who would seem to have been rather pivotal.

The bottom line is that Nissan actually made a pretty good road car, developed quite a lot of special sports and racing parts for it, but very rarely get any credit for it. Rarely too do you read anything much about their exploits in their home market of Japan, or what the factory did with them there. I guess it's inevitable that a discussion about the '240Z' on a UK-based forum will mention 'Samuri Conversions' at some point ( usually either just before, or just after, BRE and BSR ), but I prefer to look a bit further than my own back yard when talking about what is, after all, a Japanese car.

Cheers,
Alan T.

[z-spec]

I think you can build a pre 72 car whats verry competetif and verry light ,
Your more free with later specs , ( Gr H ) but can not use certain lightweight parts . Some parts is probably a problem , but do not pay Porsche prices for it ,
We have done already a lot of work to this , Alan , you can confirm that .

[terence]

Certainly,when I can find a reasonable version,its my choice as a replacement for my FIA B. Excellent car,quicker than most British cars in the same catagory and a fabulous driving car,yes,I do know what a well sorted one is like.

[SKiddell]

Sorry to be so forward with my 1st post
Good afternoon all (Alan and Duncan hope your both well )

I am new to this forum but not S30's

To add weight (not that it needs it) to suggestions that using a UK road going 240z (tweaked or not) especially a road "prepped" Samuri is not necessarily a good base for comparison.

As a regular follower of HSCC 70's roadsports, I regularly seen Charles Barter "take apart" most challengers (7's, Morgans, MG's and Jags) and its only recently that the more "modern" 928's with vented discs, FI and limited slips and TVR's with mighty Ric Wood V6's etc have been able to challenge him (Charles still runs solid discs and twin SU's according to the rules) even then they are not let off the hook lightly. Some may say that it’s purely down to the remarkable driving ability of Charles, and agreed he is a rare talent however 240z’s have featured in HSCC for many years with different faces at the wheel and never fail to deliver great results.

On a personal note I run a 73 240Z with a triple throttle bodied all steel 3 litre, it will happily to pull a 12 second 1/4 mile and will lap Donington in sub 1:24 (without the loop) some of the high end S30 exotica (of which Alan has infinitely more experience that me) will put this to shame.

Even with a rank amateur like me at the helm, when set up right they are a remarkable drive with excellent manners even when pushed.

[andy97]

Sound like the ideal car for the 360 MRC 6 hour race for "clubman" at Snetterton on 3o April 2011!

[terence]

And certainly a Capri beater,there might even be one out there next year.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by terence bower

And certainly a Capri beater,there might even be one out there next year.

now that would be really good to see - I have a huge soft spot for 240Zs

[simon drabble]

I dont want to be a killjoy but can we not hijack every thread and convert it into a subliminal plug for the 360 race next August.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I dont want to be a killjoy but can we not hijack every thread and convert it into a subliminal plug for the 360 race next August.

Simon there isn't one in August - did you mean the one in April?

[simon drabble]

shows how overexposure can lose its impact ;o)

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I dont want to be a killjoy but can we not hijack every thread and convert it into a subliminal plug for the 360 race next August.

I concur although in the context of the thread as there's no FIA class to race a 240Z then that would appear to be a good alternative.

However it's a bit like many threads turning into anti V8/FIA Appk cheating/oversized Jag engines debates.

[Al Weyman]

I thought a 240Z was a two seater.

[Froggyz]

Originally Posted by kickstart

I have always like these cars and I think it is possible to build one to FIA spec for a good deal less than something like an E type.

My queries are hence - how well do they go in FIA spec ?

The other issue is whether one will get entries to do the events I would like to do such as the Spa 6 hours (it is in the invitation class) and Oldtimer GP.

These were the original questions, not a Samuri or Big Sam thread or some '360' race.......!
There was much more Z racing in Europe than one years' series in the UK and like PZR, I find original Japanese racing cars more attractive than the superb exploits of the cousins across the pond.

The 240Z and FIA historic racing.

The car that ran at LM Classic last year is a make-over that hardly has 220 bhp never mind the 270 quoted - lap times would support the much lower power figure. It has steel panels and an L24 so not exploiting its' fullest potentiel.

There is one FIA Z in France, white and GrpIV.

There is another one in the pipeline, yet another planned in Belgium, talk of one in the south of France but I'm not convinced so far that it'll be anything other than a nice looker. There is a second one being built by a recognised Z racer in the UK and yet another by he who has been deeply involved with the HSCC Zs for 20 years.
2011 should be a breakthrough year with plenty more taking to the track in 2012.

Without a doubt, there are more planned but above I have quoted those that I'm sure will see the light of day within the next 18 months.

Keep watching.

I don't know what it costs to buy and prepare an E-Type for FIA, any info would be constructive in comparing to the budgets of which I'm aware.