[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[Spyderman]

Maybe so, but the fact is that on average, they were all doing similar speeds at that particular point.

[TzeiTzei]

Kinda wish that WEC would have similar sectors to what IMSA has. Would give us a lot more information.

[carbsmith]

Definitely hard to figure what to make of it. If the Toyotas were less consistent with traffic (and probably tires too) that would hurt their average top speed a bit too, but we also know with lift and coast drag affects acceleration more than terminal velocity much of the time too (which is presumably why you get 15+kph outliers when someone was making a pass or can't use the energy elsewhere or whatever)

I'm not even sure whether sector 1 or 3 could be considered more low drag friendly, although that only matters in comparison to Audi.


I was wondering if there was a way to get per lap speed traps, thanks for that.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Definitely hard to figure what to make of it. If the Toyotas were less consistent with traffic (and probably tires too) that would hurt their average top speed a bit too, but we also know with lift and coast drag affects acceleration more than terminal velocity much of the time too (which is presumably why you get 15+kph outliers when someone was making a pass or can't use the energy elsewhere or whatever)

I'm not even sure whether sector 1 or 3 could be considered more low drag friendly, although that only matters in comparison to Audi.


I was wondering if there was a way to get per lap speed traps, thanks for that.

http://fiawec.alkamelsystems.com/

See that 2016 is selected with Silverstone, and then open the race folder, then hour 6 folder and click on the chronological analysis PDF. There you can see every lap time per car and the speed trap figure for that lap.

[Deleted]

As I've said before, I don't believe in "real performances" really appearing prior Test Day, but regardless, the showing was disappointing to me. Not only performance wise, but I'm also unsure of their ability to find quick workarounds for problems (Saturday issues???, the puncture dragging).

Meanwhile, just like last year, Graham Goodwin seems overly optimistic of the cars pace at this stage of the game.

[TF110]

I put this on the Silverstone race thread, but it should be said here...

a) last year Toyota had 0 laps under 1:42 at Silverstone. This year, they had 13 laps under 1:42 all from the #6 car.
b)Their best lap last year was 1:42.2, this year it was 1:40.6, a 1.6 second improvement on their best (and even more for the #6/#2 particularly).

Nakajima didn't realize he had a puncture (so he says) but he was driving too fast, or else they'd have even more points. I think Spa should be much better.

[cokata]

The scariest prospect is the aero package wasn't that bad, but it was the engine that was lacking. Now eyeballing the rear wing + the front splitter on the Porsche and they look visibly bigger then Toyotas. Yes that is not a 100% clear indication of the drag produced by the car, but it's generally safe to assume that the Porsche had more drag then the Toyota.

While this on one side is ok as it means there is nothing wrong with the aero, it is not telling a good story about the engine. Toyota purposefully went with a big-ish displacement engine for forced induction, and kept the car KERS only to not hinder engine power. And if after all that their engine is no better then the smaller and lighter V4 in the Porsche, that would mean that they are doomed for Le Mans.

[GasperG]

Length of the wing is no indication of overall car drag, or is it?

It may very well be true that Toyota has lover drag than Porsche, but on the other hand Porsche demonstrated higher speed through corners. Higher speed out of the corner will also get you just as high top speed on the short straights. Higher performance through the twisty bits can be a factor of many thing, not just ICE power.

SPA will be better indication where thing are, but still it will be hard to judge on what department exactly Toyota is lagging. The best way it would be to ask Toyota themselves where they are lagging.

[Adam43]

It's completely unknown.

Was it off the pace, or are they still getting to grips with set-up including managing their new hybrid system.
Was it short of downforce, or are they running a nearer LM spec. than the others?

Your opinion probably depends on whether you are TF110, chernaudi or Spyderman.

[YorkshireLad]

I'm guessing Toyota are using 2015spec bodywork with slight changes for the start of this year, similar to what Porsche have done.

Does anybody think we're going to get a substantial change in the LM package now teams have had time to see Audis radical aero?


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[carbon_titanium]

toyota pace is really hard to understand... some fast 1.41 alternated to many 1.42-1.43... ts050 has the overall performance but lacks of consistency for some reason.
Anyway since 2014, toyota never used radical and different bodyworks during the season (audi style)... usually they develope the low drag bodywork as main focus, and then change diveplanes and winglets here and there to get the HD package

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

Does anybody think we're going to get a substantial change in the LM package now teams have had time to see Audis radical aero?

So this is not really a Toyota question as Porsche might be in the same situation. Regardless, I think there is one question that I don't know if anyone has really discussed since Silverstone (or even before). Does the new Audi aero work as advertised?

New cars can be evolutionary (continued refinement) or revolutionary (new concept). A key point is that "new" is not always better. While I am sure Audi have performed a lot of CFD and tunnel work and may even feel it is better on paper, you really don't know until you race it. And given how much Audi has changed with the car, who knows if the new aero is a plus, minus or neutral impact. They clearly were very competitive at Silverstone but can anyone (but Audi) really say what percentage various "improvements" factored into that success?

It was either last season or the season before in which in F1 they had new regulations around nose height. We saw a number of different solutions right after that change (including Lotus with a radical two prong nose). So clearly various teams thought they "had it right". But since then, there has been a lot of convergence and some of those radical ideas didn't pan out.

The basic concept of what Audi is doing has been known publicly for awhile now and maybe even in private teams like Porsche and Toyota might have known earlier (ears to the ground). I would expect that Toyota and Porsche would be running the numbers behind closed doors to see if they think the concept has legs or not. Depending upon what the opinion is of their own aero team and how much wiggle room (ability to physically implement, time, money) they have in their design, they may or may not try to replicate features of the new Audi.

Richard

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It's completely unknown.

Was it off the pace, or are they still getting to grips with set-up including managing their new hybrid system.
Was it short of downforce, or are they running a nearer LM spec. than the others?

Your opinion probably depends on whether you are TF110, chernaudi or Spyderman.

[TF110]

Sarrazin says to autohebdo they're currently only exploiting about 80% of the car's potential https://twitter.com/matlemans/status/722524111822577666

[roderick]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

toyota pace is really hard to understand... some fast 1.41 alternated to many 1.42-1.43... ts050 has the overall performance but lacks of consistency for some reason.

Toyota this year has worked towards the top speed over acceleration. therefore, if there are no traffic, they can get a good time. However, with more cars on the road, it's hard for them to get around them compared with Audi and Porsche.

Originally Posted by TF110

Sarrazin says to autohebdo they're currently only exploiting about 80% of the car's potential https://twitter.com/matlemans/status/722524111822577666

I dont believe that's true...the car in my opinion has done very well at silverstone where there are no long straights. (Yes, the car can improve alot more for the rainy condition)

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It's completely unknown.

Was it off the pace, or are they still getting to grips with set-up including managing their new hybrid system.
Was it short of downforce, or are they running a nearer LM spec. than the others?

Your opinion probably depends on whether you are TF110, chernaudi or Spyderman.

As my name was used in vain I'll take the liberty of providing my unsolicited opinion: I think Toyota have Le Mans in their sights. They are using the first two races essentially as testing events. The Toyota you will see at Le Mans will be a very different one. Maybe not so much in appearance, but certainly in performance.

[GasperG]

I would also not be too worried about Toyota in the future (I just hope it's near future), in every PR statement they note that they are learning the car setup. Sometimes it feels like someone (Japanese?) made them a car and just said "Here you go and win some races", but they forget to write a proper instructions manual

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

So this is not really a Toyota question as Porsche might be in the same situation. Regardless, I think there is one question that I don't know if anyone has really discussed since Silverstone (or even before). Does the new Audi aero work as advertised?

New cars can be evolutionary (continued refinement) or revolutionary (new concept). A key point is that "new" is not always better. While I am sure Audi have performed a lot of CFD and tunnel work and may even feel it is better on paper, you really don't know until you race it. And given how much Audi has changed with the car, who knows if the new aero is a plus, minus or neutral impact. They clearly were very competitive at Silverstone but can anyone (but Audi) really say what percentage various "improvements" factored into that success?

It was either last season or the season before in which in F1 they had new regulations around nose height. We saw a number of different solutions right after that change (including Lotus with a radical two prong nose). So clearly various teams thought they "had it right". But since then, there has been a lot of convergence and some of those radical ideas didn't pan out.

The basic concept of what Audi is doing has been known publicly for awhile now and maybe even in private teams like Porsche and Toyota might have known earlier (ears to the ground). I would expect that Toyota and Porsche would be running the numbers behind closed doors to see if they think the concept has legs or not. Depending upon what the opinion is of their own aero team and how much wiggle room (ability to physically implement, time, money) they have in their design, they may or may not try to replicate features of the new Audi.

Richard

You sir, are a true gentleman...and have the patients of a saint.

[TF110]

Toyota testing in Aragon
https://twitter.com/alex_wurz/status/722972498443276292
Alex Wurz getting in on the action!

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

You sir, are a true gentleman...and have the patients of a saint.

Thank you. Not sure if I deserve that much praise however!

Originally Posted by TF110

Toyota testing in Aragon
https://twitter.com/alex_wurz/status/722972498443276292
Alex Wurz getting in on the action!

Do we expect to see any photos or are they good at hiding things at Aragon? I believe Audi is testing there as well with Porsche testing there in two weeks? I would assume if they are doing LM simulation, it will be with the low downforce configuration?

Richard

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Thank you. Not sure if I deserve that much praise however!


Do we expect to see any photos or are they good at hiding things at Aragon? I believe Audi is testing there as well with Porsche testing there in two weeks? I would assume if they are doing LM simulation, it will be with the low downforce configuration?

Richard

I assume so, especially with what Wurz says and that's what sc365 said about a week ago.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

As my name was used in vain...

Not really in vain, just with fun

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I think Toyota have Le Mans in their sights. They are using the first two races essentially as testing events.

Ok then..How come the Toyota we have seen at Silverstone was so monumentally off pace? Tests are usually planned and teams have an idea and an expectation on where they should be. The drivers were baffled and were clearly frustrated and doesnt give me any confidence that this was some pre-Le Mans Test prep up

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Ok then..How come the Toyota we have seen at Silverstone was so monumentally off pace? Tests are usually planned and teams have an idea and an expectation on where they should be. The drivers were baffled and were clearly frustrated and doesnt give me any confidence that this was some pre-Le Mans Test prep up

Tem will tell.

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[TF110]

Define monumentally off pace. Their fastest lap was only .3 off the best, by Porsche. Consistency can be found with better setups and learning the new car.