Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Mixer]

so DTM just becomes the name for a pseudo European GT3 championship?

it just means nothing now. I don't know that it has a place to be.

[S griffin]

DTM is expanding, so it's much more than a German series now. Fair play for them for trying, but how long will it last?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

DTM is expanding, so it's much more than a German series now. Fair play for them for trying, but how long will it last?

Well - since the series became Deutsche Tourenwagen Masters they've had overseas rounds for over twenty years now, so it seems to be lasting.

[S griffin]

Yes, but they still mainly had German rounds, but it took time to pick up elsewhere. Now they seem to have as many races in other countries and I think that might be a step too far

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Yes, but they still mainly had German rounds, but it took time to pick up elsewhere. Now they seem to have as many races in other countries and I think that might be a step too far

You probably need to check back on the history of the series before making that statement.
You do realise that from 2002 onwards (with the exception of 2015) at least 40% of races were held outside of Germany every season?

The only reason I make this point is because you described the series as 'expanding [...] it's much more than a German series now' and I am highlighting that it has been that way for over 20 years.

When you look at the range of nationalities competing as drivers, IMO it seems right to have a continental reach - don't you think?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Nice way to cherry pick - plenty left before 2022 (many to eTCR). There will not be any new ones. TCR has peaked and it is never going to grow from here.

Plenty left TCR?
From the factory projects only Volkswagen left TCR but that was because they quit all forms of motorsport. They had already developed a new version of the TCR Golf. Last season we have seen the debut of the Toyota Corolla TCR. Took already it's first vicotry.

Many left for eTCR?
Only Alfa Romeo left WTCR for eTCR. Cupra and Hyundai are still in (W)TCR.

in 2022 I have seen racing with TCR versions of Alfa Romeo, Audi, Cupra, Fiat, Holden, Honda, Hyundai, Lada, MG, Peugeot, Renault, Subaru, Volkswagen, Lynk & Co and Toyota.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Plenty left TCR?
From the factory projects only Volkswagen left TCR but that was because they quit all forms of motorsport. They had already developed a new version of the TCR Golf. Last season we have seen the debut of the Toyota Corolla TCR. Took already it's first vicotry.

Correct on Toyota - that is genuinely new to competition but it's also been promised for about 5 years.

on VW, not correct - 7.5 was out a long time before VW pulled out - by which point Mk8 was already around.

Audi did revise the RS3 after it was said that only Cupra would continue in TCR.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Correct on Toyota - that is genuinely new to competition but it's also been promised for about 5 years.

on VW, not correct - 7.5 was out a long time before VW pulled out - by which point Mk8 was already around.

Audi did revise the RS3 after it was said that only Cupra would continue in TCR.

Images have emerged of a Volkswagen Golf GTI TCR MK8 prototype, a model mothballed when Volkswagen Motorsport closed its doors.

The car was set to replace the MK7 Golf GTI TCR in 2021, but the project was stopped as Volkswagen announced that it halted all motorsport activities in December 2020.

Judging from the images, the prototype was in a late stage of development and is currently residing at the Volkswagen Classic museum in Wolfsburg.

...

https://www.touringcartimes.com/2022...mk8-prototype/

MK8 Golf GTI was launched in the summer of 2020 so it makes sense to start racing with the MK8 Golf GTI TCR in 2021.

So your info is not correct. Mayby do some homework before making bold statements (see also the TCR Australia topic).

[Mixer]

Err, your point 100% proves my point.

Mk8 production car was around when VW were pulling out and they've never sold a Mk8 TCR race car, which is why you have a PROTOTYPE in a museum.

[S griffin]

I think the Supercars series will grow now. TCR isn't really enough of a threat, despite it's close racing

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

so DTM just becomes the name for a pseudo European GT3 championship?

it just means nothing now. I don't know that it has a place to be.

DTM was created running to Group A touring car rules…… the set of regs used hardly changes its importance

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by one five five

DTM was created running to Group A touring car rules…… the set of regs used hardly changes its importance

Although it's not really a touring car series anymore

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Err, your point 100% proves my point.

Mk8 production car was around when VW were pulling out and they've never sold a Mk8 TCR race car, which is why you have a PROTOTYPE in a museum.

They never sold cars because VW Motorsport was shutdown.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Although it's not really a touring car series anymore

Supercars isn't either.

[S griffin]

I disagree. It's still close enough to a standard saloon to me

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I disagree. It's still close enough to a standard saloon to me

Which bit is the same as a standard saloon?

The lightweight faux headlights and taillights? The plastic windows? The carbon-fibre body panels? The tubular chassis? The floorpan and firewall made out of flat sheet metal? The rear transaxle? The adjustable double wishbone suspension? The billet uprights?

I noticed that even WRC's tubeframe Rally1 cars still use OEM headlights and tailights, and the OEM bonnet and tailgate, though they have obviously diverged a lot from the road cars since the Group A days too.

It's almost a little bit of the same "death by a thousand cuts" where they started with World Rally Car rules similar to Project Blueprint where there were a few diversions from the road car but nothing too bad, but then more and more concessions over the years saw the cars having little to no relation to the standard saloon (like the aforementioned lightweight headlights and more & more composite panels -- originally just the front mudguards in '07 IIRC to save the work of rolling the guards, and the outer doorskin only of VE Commodore rear doors with a cut & welded standard rear doorframe).

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Which bit is the same as a standard saloon?

The 2-door coupe body.

[FIRE]

Apart from the internals of a Supercar for me Mustang and Camaro are more GT.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Apart from the internals of a Supercar for me Mustang and Camaro are more GT.

That would be the general consensus.

The difference being that in Australia, both the Mustang and the Camaro, in their 1960's guise, were the basis of "Improved Production" regulations that helped grow the popular support for touring car racing that eclipsed the popularity of open wheel racing downunder.

[Matt K]

I don't really get this debating about whether the cars are touring cars or GT or not real touring cars or whatever. Does it really matter that much? Personally, I don't give a damn about plastic windows, carbon-fibre panels, tubular chassis and all of that. The most important thing is that the cars are exciting to watch (way more than TCR for example) and provide good racing. Are they touring cars or GT? Couldn't care less. After all, what is the exact definition of a touring car? For me Supercars are touring cars in this way that they are based on road cars which can be bought in real life, have four seats, resemble the road version of the cars. GT I'd associate more with an endurance, 2-drivers-per-car model, cars based on typical sportscars with 2 seats and so on.
I've got the feeling that the lines are a bit blurred nowadays for instance because of parity measures, cost-cutting measures and also a changing motor industry. Some years ago I'd never believe that a GT car may be based on a four-seat coupe which is more like a coupe version of a saloon car and is hardly comparable with Lambos or Ferraris. But we have M4 GT3, which seems even more touring car-ish than the M6 before him. And it's not inconceivable that in the future we might also have Audi RS5 GT3.

Doesn't really matter if Supercars meets all criteria to be a touring car or GT. After all, apart from TCR and BTCC, which are the other 'true' touring car championships?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Matt K

I don't really get this debating about whether the cars are touring cars or GT or not real touring cars or whatever. Does it really matter that much? Personally, I don't give a damn about plastic windows, carbon-fibre panels, tubular chassis and all of that. The most important thing is that the cars are exciting to watch (way more than TCR for example) and provide good racing. Are they touring cars or GT? Couldn't care less. After all, what is the exact definition of a touring car? For me Supercars are touring cars in this way that they are based on road cars which can be bought in real life, have four seats, resemble the road version of the cars. GT I'd associate more with an endurance, 2-drivers-per-car model, cars based on typical sportscars with 2 seats and so on.
I've got the feeling that the lines are a bit blurred nowadays for instance because of parity measures, cost-cutting measures and also a changing motor industry. Some years ago I'd never believe that a GT car may be based on a four-seat coupe which is more like a coupe version of a saloon car and is hardly comparable with Lambos or Ferraris. But we have M4 GT3, which seems even more touring car-ish than the M6 before him. And it's not inconceivable that in the future we might also have Audi RS5 GT3.

Doesn't really matter if Supercars meets all criteria to be a touring car or GT. After all, apart from TCR and BTCC, which are the other 'true' touring car championships?

Do I care? Yes and no.

Different cars to what I used to was one of the reason I started liking Supercars. The days with Holden, Ford, Nissan and Volvo were for me the best days.

Moving to GT cars like Camaro and Mustang decreases by interest. There are already plenty of GT championships around the world. And having only 2 manufacturers isn't helping either.

However I understand the reason for this (and DTM's) move because the car market has changed. And as an European I am not Supercars target.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Do I care? Yes and no.

Different cars to what I used to was one of the reason I started liking Supercars. The days with Holden, Ford, Nissan and Volvo were for me the best days.

Moving to GT cars like Camaro and Mustang decreases by interest. There are already plenty of GT championships around the world. And having only 2 manufacturers isn't helping either.

However I understand the reason for this (and DTM's) move because the car market has changed. And as an European I am not Supercars target.

Well, yes, I understand you, however, let's be honest, the 'glory days' and the golden era of Supercars was when only Ford and Holden were present and this was a fantastic era. I mean, of course would be a lot better if together with Chevrolet and Ford were the likes of Audi, BMW or Toyota but let's face it, it's extremely unlikely that it ever happens.

There may be plenty of GT championships in the world but (the way I see it) none of them is similar to Supercars, most rely on GT3 regulations. So even if we perceive Supercars as a GT series (which I don't btw) it's still unique.

Yeah, I mean I'm European as well, although Supercars is one of my top fav championships in the world - which of course doesn't mean I can't see the worse sides of it.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Matt K

For me Supercars are touring cars in this way that they are based on road cars which can be bought in real life

You can’t buy a Camaro in real life! Walkinshaw stopped producing them in 2020, they’re just as old as the so-called “old ZB Commodore”!

https://www.drive.com.au/news/chevro...-in-australia/

[GTRMagic]

Meantime.. are there any finished cars yet?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Meantime.. are there any finished cars yet?

They have just done a lottery to distribute the 1st engines (1 engine per 2 car team at this stage)
Lottery is so engines are random / pot luck and no chance of "team X got a better engine than we did" talk)

Other than that apparently the hold up is on the fixed supplier control items which are stalling the builds.

“We don’t have engines, exhausts, air boxes, radiator ducts, front splitters, front crash bars, dashboards, leg protection/drivers floor trays (both these items are now for us to make), rear wings, uprights and several designs and items we are expecting for assembly direction.”

Some teams are suggesting mid Feb shakedown and testing earliest.

"Honest update" letter a few days from Erebus outlined the situation
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/01/19...pdate-on-gen3/