Peuegot 205 T16 Post 1987

[Barrie]

Murray probably got it wrong Peter, usually did. It was probably a Norwegian championship round, I can remember reading that he used to go over quite abit and stay at Mr Schanche's.

[Hog]

Ahhhhhhh - the great smell of nostalgia!

[Zep]

BTW Matti Alamäki is trying to do a comeback to rallycross this season. If only gets budget...

[Barrie]

Tell us more Zep, European comeback, or National comeback.?

[Zep]

What I've read, European. I guess we'll find more soon.

[Peter S]

which class.......division 1, 2 or 1a ??????? And if so what car?

[DCS]

Well there will always be the queastion of a view toppers fighting for the first three places. But personally I think Alamaki was best driver in 1988, 1989 and 1990. Too bad he wasn't competing in Lydden after destroying his car in Finland (never seen any pictures of that). Some people refer to manufacturing support for some driver, but this isn't always the case! Most of the toppers get some sort of support, but it is not that much. Ford for example did not develope the Schanche cars. Peugeot gave Alamaki technical support, but did not develope the car altough they did provide him with "Pikes Peak" technology. Most of the credits go to the drivers, who did everything themselves.

I really hope that in the future the 45 mm restrictors will be put aside again (just like in 1993-1998). Remember 1995, 1996 and 1997 with the big wings? In that year finally the group B records where broken! So bring back those days with current technology. In Hansen's CCC 1997 review and preview they spoke about 900 bhp engines...

[Peter S]

the restrictors are hear to stay. This is for the best as it makes a wider range of cars avaiable to drivers. It also presents more competitve racing and stops those with fat cheque books and wallets dominating the sport as much as they use to. In Europe people like Sverre Isachson, Mortern Bermingrud can now compete and lap times are closer together.

European times are no close to the lap records, which could easily be broken this year. Hansens Citroen has never had anywhere near 900bhp. More like 700bhp at the maximum. With the restrictor it produces 520bhp, but a lot more torque. As circuits in Europe are a lot tighter than in this country it has little effect meaning lap times are unaltered. The most powerful car in the 1993-97 era was Tommy Kristoffersons audi which produced 750bhp.

1995, 96 and 97 were the poorest years rallycross have ever seen. The wings did its best to kill the championship. This is when television coverage was lost, as costs got to high. Hansen and Schanche won virtually every round by more than 5 seconds.

The amount of support from manufacturers is now higher than ever (see other thread).

It comes back to this false image of european regs that British rallycross fans have been subjected to.

Do u remember 1997 when Schanche came to Lydden Hill. He had his car fitted with the restrictor, grooved tyres and 120kgs more weight than Will Gollops Peugeot 306. Schanches escort gave gollop a bit of a whooping in the final, which shows that the cars are no slower today than the older generation.

Take the British Rallycross Grand Prix at Croft last year. Michael Jernberg in his restricted Focus had fastest time of the day, which was 3 seconds faster than anyone else.

[DCS]

No, I don't agree! Hansen told CCC that Citroën was developing a new engine that could produce in the region of 900 bhp on maximum boost. Ok Schanche and Hansen dominated the field, but Hansen still dominates the field because they have the sources to build a well handling car! What is the point in slowing the cars down to WRC 34 mm spec? Even with 34 mm Peugeot (and also a bit Citroën) is dominating the rally scene, not just because the've got more power.

Nowadays there are road going cars that can do 0-100-0 mph in about the same time (11,0 secs) as Hansen. Also the end restrictors don't make the cars more expensive. Remember that top of the bill group N costs about the same a being a A final div 1 candidate or have you forgotten Eivind Opland and his EVO's? Also Hansen runs about the same budget as a top DTC team (which is just stupid group N tarmac racing).

I was glad to see that 1995 brought back group B look-a-like monsters in Rallycross because 1993 and 1994 where dissapointing. The problem in Rallycross is it's marketing strategy and FIA influence, another problem is that drivers always wanted to have the family / amateur feeling in Rallycross. Also the regulations changed so much that you need to build a new car every few year. No more spaceframes in Europe... Which means you need to base around expensive (and dated) WRC material.

It is a sad thing that cars weight so much these days especially when put up against the FIA died 2 litre Kitcars. And it is also sad the speed is further reduced by turbo restrictors, have you seen modified road going Cosworths or EVO's fitted with them?

Thank god the Xsara of Hansen is miles away from the Xsara WRC. He uses different engine, drivetrain, chassis technology... because the WRC just ain't capable of handling this much boost and thereforpower.

And hmm oh yeah...
Did you ever see a ZX, BX, Xsara, Astra, S2, Fiesta, Puma and Mondeo in the "T16 4wd" WRC championchips? Right, WRC is not the solution!

[Peter S]

Dont start talking about spaceframes......they are a joke. Proper cars are needed. They have failed big time in ENgland and never ever need to be considered again. The Audi TT toy car of Terry Briggs has proved this

Safety also comes into. I remember will gollop saying he would never run below the certain weight and with 900bhp in a car because it isnt safe. After what happened in 1996 at alencon, in the tragic inter nations cup event these things have to be considered, to keep the cars in check. The same reason why they have grooved tyres in formula 1 and aerodynamic limitations.

The regs are parity WRc regs that allow adaption. More like concept WRC regs. Hence the reason for the Saab etc. To me and most these are the best regs ever produced to generate equal racing and present a better product for media and marketing.

Division 1a is looking very good and division 2 is very successful in all countrys. Look at the race in belgium yesterday at Alencon. They had 15 division 1 cars entered in there national championship of high quality. So there isnt a problem.

There are over 10 makes represented in 2003 something. rallycross has never seen before in the top category. A lot more drivers are commited to the championship than ever before as well. In turn a lot more manufacturer support.

They arent 34mm restrictors, they are 45mm ones so more power can be produced.

Hansen doesnt dominate as much as he did. The level between all cars is much more equalier, times are closer together and more drivers stand a chance of winning.

This anyone of 12 drivers have the ability to win a round. When was the last time that happened......erm never.
New cars every year......dont think so. Eklund is still using a development of the one he has had since 1999 when he won the championship. Then there is Koutny still challenging hansen in his 3 year focus and larsson his 3 year old Audi A4. Big grids in 2003 will show how good these regs are. It is racing we want to see not a performance car show. IF you want to see a car with a big formula 1 wing then go to a f1 race.

Put it this way it is much cheaper to build a modern division 1 car to parity wrc regs which produces around 550bhp than it was to build a supercar of old producing 800bhp. In those day hansen and schanche could only afford. Gollop could not get his 306 anywhere near that. Thats what killed the sport. Hence the lack of competitors etc. and then no one wanted to show it on tv due to lack of appeal to fans. People like to at least part recognize a car. hence the big deals for 2003 on tv, because rallycross is regaining its popularity. We have a more professional product that can be market effectively.

Last year Hansens Xsara macthed the british spec machines off the line and everything. They were just as compeititve and quick as the un restricted and un weight limited British cars (after all it was dorans rs200 which punted him off in the final....something that group b cars like doing as it is the only way a group b car can win against modern machinery). There is very little difference in performance. As i said before Jernberg was three seconds quicker to claim fastest time.

[BertMk2]

Anything that allows drivers to use a wider range of machinery is fine by me, at the moment the supercar lineup is a bit like a Ford owners club, the current regulations have resulted in the Cosworth being the only practical engine to use (I know there are cars not using Cosworths but they're in the minority).

The restrictors will reduce top end BHP but will allow an increase in torque so their overall influence on lap times is debatable. In order for drivers to develop cars stability of regulations is needed - it also makes sense for the regs to be common across europe as this allows competitors to use one car in multiple series. (I'd love to see more european cars running in british events or even a british round of the european championship again).

Oh while I'm at it - the spaceframe regs should be binned now, that TT is a shed.

[Peter S]

I am in complete agreement. I say BertMk2 should be made the president of Rallycross!!

Knockhill will see the debut of Kevin McCanns sexy subaru impreza built to European regs. If the turbo restrictor rules for next year hadnt of been in place then it would have gone into the modified category. Instead we have the presence of great division 1 car in the top category!!

Actually there are only 4 (3 left!!) rounds of the british championship that european drivers cand drive in. They are:

Lydden Hill April 21st (gone!)
Knockhill May 25th
Lydden Hill August 25th
Brands Hatch November 16th

This is because of Licence regs meaning that european drivers can only race in national meatings which has an National Events authorised Foreign Participation Scheme (NEAFP). (in other words it has to be a "Open" meating)

Expect a big, big european contingent at the british grand prix at croft in october as well!

[DCS]

Well this is getting interesting!

But about the spaceframe I did not say I did favour the spaceframe. I just wanted to point out that every time regulations changed some drivers actually quit Rallycross because there money couldn't keep up (that's why there are still so many group B car around in GB!).

Also about the rallycross footage, we saw more footage from 1993-1996 than later in the progress, even now footage of European Championship is poor! Only local station RTL 5 is showing some rounds...

Ofcourse we want to see some close race action, but we don't want to see some sort of cup (like a Clio cup) we would like to see some unique looking cars. And people like watching at supercars, also in the streets people will break there neck for a italian supercar. In rallycross division 2 is more close, but people get on there toes for division 1 Lambo beating performance! That's why they love Schanche, Alamaki, Hansen, Kristofferson

So I am only against the current restrictor and even more against the weight limit (almost 50% more that in the late 80's). Ps 34 mm is the current WRC restrictor, before group A also had 38 mm etc, etc... Oh yeah and the first rallycross cars had 52 mm restrictors. And only the best WRC's were capable of beating the 2 litre kitcar entries on the tarmac rounds (that's why they are banned now).

The biggest problem at this moment that every country has it's own regulations so cars are not competivly interchangable.

Peter S said the restrictor makes the field come closer. I don't think this is gonna happen. If euro class is currently as fast as GB class, than with restrictor the GB contenders will be seconds slower than there euro rivals...
Whichs means... Yep a gap!

Still I think WRC will mean the end of some exciting machinery which we have seen in the past (like the Kristofferson Audi).

Why does everyone have the illusion of factory support in Rallycross? Uptill now only a happy few get some sort of support from a manufacture! And some will have to pay big money for that support... Worst of all none of the WRC's competing in Rallycross are build to the latest specifications. And even if they were they would need to be modified for succesfull Rallycross use. Okay Hansen, Paillier, Eklund get some major support but their cars are way of WRC standard (thank god that the 45 mm vs the 34 mm Rallycross cars are actually quicker)

[Peter S]

I only have to quote Martin Schanche " The cars with the restrictors are between 0.5 and 0.7 seconds slower, but most of this is down to the Treaded tyres and increased weight"

Every country runs to the FIA division 1 regulations apart from Great Britian.

Put it this way Hansen Xsara is by far the nicest car i have ever seen. If you ask the majority of people what they thought of the wingged cars mid 90's they would only remember Schanches Snotty coloured ford escort which looked like a lump of mettle put togther......yet another Ford......oh and there were fords of squibb, jerberg, skogstad, Iverson, Hunsbedt.....erm the list goes on.

As for British Tony Bell was running full erc spec at last round and was only 6 seconds off the pace. Tony Bell also raced at around in Belgium and he was only 3-4 seconds off Jos Kuypers....and he beat Antonsson, Hunsbedt, Olsen and Nordgaard at British Rallycross Grand Prix....in a erc spec machine identical to the europeans, so there wont be a I think you (DCS) are reading to much into the restrictor and the related speed of current rallycross cars.

Check out this: look at the 0-100 and the time - compare it to the unrestricted Ford Rs200 of Pat Doran....no difference.

The european cars are in kmh (0-100) and doran is in mph (0-60) so the European cars are faster if you do the calculations.

http://www.rallyracing.nl/Rallycross%20Car%20Specs.htm

And we all know that Gollop is a better driver. Gollops focus with the restrictor will be a match for the europeans. Just wait until Belgium and Holland and you will see GOLLOP FLY!!!! The king of British Rallycross WILL BE BACK AT THE TOP IN EUROPE!! WILL POWER!!!!!!!!!

Put it this way there will be at least 7 manufacturers offering support for drivers this year in division 1, not mentioning division 2.

As for tv for 2003

NRK
SVT
French terestrial and Belgium

Eurosport - 5 rounds confirmed rest confirmed probably next friday.

And more tv and media promotion to follow.

Potential winners for 2003full time racers)

Hansen - backing from citroen
Eklund - backing from saab
Hunsbedt - backing from ford in england
Pailler - backing from Peugeot.....techincal assitance from Jean Paul Nicholas...works 206 shell.
Jernberg
Koutny - backing from Skoda
Zeman - backing from Skoda
Moller - backing from Seat
Larsson - ??????
Johansson - backing from Hyundai
Bermingrud - backing from Citoren norway
Voie
Isachsen (he was on pole for 2002 final round, finsihed 2nd and he has ex hunsbedt car of 3 years...so much for not being competitive!!)
Kuypers

and then u have the new Golf Of Ronny Scheveneels which wil make its debut in the supercar category later in the year.

I suggest you read the 2003 preview on www.rallyracing.nl

Did you know that hansens 2002 Xsara had developments fitted for the 2003 wrc rally car........erm and Hansen carried intital development on his Xsara for the WRC version.

oh and under the term WRC is not allowed for Rallycross Cars FIA site Technical Appendix J Article 279

I prefare the modern day cars compared to the early ninetees anyway. They look much nicer.

[DCS]

Yes, Cars look good this days, thanks to WRC wings.

But in 1993 and 1994 cars looked really dull without any wings at al. From 1997 (or 1998) the smaller wings also looked really dull. Only until the WRC style hit the Rallycross cars cars looked at the best.

Regarding Ford even with the current WRC influence in the ERC people still choose Focus because it's cheaper to build a 500+ Cosworth engine than building a custom engine of Opel, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, etc, etc. Just remember how much work en engines Schanche used with the Opel before getting it right. Also you cannot just buy a Peugeot or Citroën engine.

Yes currently there are some strong contenders but the all come from Scandinavia and most of them don't drive the ERC at all!

TV coverage still is poor: The only TV we can recieve over here is Eurosport (long time ago) and local station RTL5.

So only in England, Norway, Sweden and France there seems to be reasanoble coverage.

About the laptimes most of today good lap times are courtesy of the very well handling, tyres and schokabsorbers. And yes I know there is a big difference between miles and km's. But 0-60 mph or 0-100 kmh is not that importend but 0-100 mph+ or 0-160 kmh+ is, in rallycross.

Also I don't care or believe the quotes from drivers, manufactures and organisers. They let us believe they can out accelerate a Fl car, they can't. The days of 0-60 in 2,15 sec is already behind us. An F1 car can do this in just around 2 sec. A top rallycross car just above 2,5 sec and average a-final cars 3,0 sec. Best WRC's around 3,5-3,6 sec.

[Peter S]

dont forget that in the 80's and 90' most of the drivers were all scendavian anyway so nothing has changed. Also tyres are grooved so they will provide less grip on tarmac but more on the loose.

Rallycross is all about short bursts on the continent. The circuits are more twisty and tight that top end doesnt matter. The british circuits are by far faster than any other country.

The reason why most people havent driven all rounds is because the championship is split into tow halfs of 5 rounds. You can only count 3 of the 5 rounds in each half of the championship to count for your overall score. That is why some drivers miss one or two.

The cosworth engine homolgation runs out very soon so most will have to consider the Zetec option that Gollop uses. That will give the G Man a big advantage. People buy Focus's because they are based in Britian and parts are sourced from M sport. hence the reason why John Cross builds them. At X sport he has provided cars for various people including Langerberg.

It is easier for drivers to get a top spec car now because they can by them cheaper than they could before, when in the mid 90's car wasnt sold on, they were just dismantled or put in a museam. Now you see BErminrud with the ex Hansen car , Isaachsen with the ex hunsbedt car, Voie with the ex schanche car....the list goes on. The passing on of compeitive cars into hands of other rallycross stars has never really happnened as much as this before. this gives younger drivers the chances of mixing it with the very, best something that is being encouraged by all in the sport.

[BertMk2]

Originally posted by Peter S
I say BertMk2 should be made the president of Rallycross!!

Sounds good to me!

[DCS]

Yes,

No comments on that, it is nice to see younger people get 4wd machinery... Too bad they don't do more euro rounds!

And yes it would be nice to see some ERC action in GB as well. And therefor I hope the regs be the same in the future.

About the spaceframes: I don't like them, because in the iceracing series the cars itself don't look like originals anymore. Take the roofline and rear windows from the icerace Xsara for example, that doesn't look proper!

I really hope that Gollop will be in the front when driving the Zetec in the ERC championship. For Tony Bell I hope he will also be in front, but I doubt so because he seems to have trouble reaching the B-final in his early Corolla days... Nice car tough...

Does anyone have a picture or details (was he 1st before the accident) of the Alamaki crash in Finland? or the Rallycross hillclimb of 1991/1992 before the ERC in GB?
Or information (times, pictures) of the Rallycross' Pikes Peak contenders.

About my first discussions, I was just affraid that Rallycross would lose it's face and unique cars (like we have seen in the past). And I was also scared it would fall down to European Rally Championship level, with old Impreza's, Corolla's and some of the early 206's (ofcourse they al do look and sound nice).

Also I hope to see some of the new WRC styling (206 and Focus) in the 2003 season.

Yes it is to bad the drivers are skipping some rounds, but it looks like they found it way to expensive to go to Portugal for example. This has probably also to do with local sponsorship for most drivers...

[Peter S]

Yeah, some drivers are skiping portuagl as they are heading straight to france as the rounds are back to back. Evryone is going to France.....there will be a lot of good drivers not qualifying for the finals....as only 16 go through! there could be at least 40 of the best in europe there in division 1. Check out the french drivers in the new month ahead article on www.rallyracing.nl when it goes on line later. All i can say is wow!

Pailler has the new 2003 206. He will debut it in france in 11 days time.

As for the new Focus, then i would think hunsbedt would have it fitted pretty soon. I guess when M sport has enough parts.

There are 3 rounds of the championship that causes problems, which is Portugal, Poland and Norway. Norway's circuit Lyngas has been in financial trouble for a few years and it is a long way for most competitiors. As is portugal and poland. They are being ackward with the tv deal as well.

[DCS]

Wow, Norway in trouble that surprises me! I always tought that Norway was big in Rallycross. It is also not that far away, close to Oslo...

Poland and Portugal doesn't surprise me. Portugal to far away and Poland considered to criminal? Also not interresting for sponsors...

In the reviews I do see some old drivers returning to Rallycross like Tom Einar Asserud and the rumors about Alamaki returning to the sport (will that be a Peugeot again?)!

Now the GB boys will have to come back. I do think it is strange there is / was no minimum weight limit in GB!
Personally I think 1100 kg for 4wd turbo monster would be good, as is 1000 kg for 2 litre group A and N cars, as is 950 kg for 1,6 litre cars...

[Peter S]

The alamaki thing is unconfirmed......but there is still time.

Rallycross is on the verge of boomning again. the entry so far for division 1 is very good for portugal........so much quality.

oh and today www.rallycross.nl has been officialy launched!! Because of the demand for the site it will run in conjunction with www.rallyracing.nl so no adjustment is needed to your links. Just that it has an increased International profile and demand now.