Lacklustre Montoya? - Page 2

Knowlesy · 14 Sep 2003, 16:12 (Ref:718591)

Quote:

Originally posted by ralf fan
Wimmiams will have an advantage in Indy with the long straight.

I thought Monza had long straights?

If the tyres hadn't changed we could be certain that Williams would win at Indy fairly comfortably but now its up in the air a bit. I expect them to do a bit better though. Fingers crossed.

ASCII Man · 14 Sep 2003, 16:15 (Ref:718594)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Not sure about this one. A combination of many things, but the Ferrari was clearly running much less wing than the Williams.

Yeah, but especially with Parabolica it's essential to carry enough speed through or you lose out on the straight.
SO if he was running less wing, he should at least have a slower exit, right? (less downforce=less grip=slower cornering?)

Mark Webber · 14 Sep 2003, 16:18 (Ref:718599)

I think williams will have much BIGGER tyre problems and Indy

Knowlesy · 14 Sep 2003, 16:20 (Ref:718602)

Willliams were expected to have the advantage at Indy but that was before the tyre controversy. It could be very different now I reckon.

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 16:23 (Ref:718606)

Quote:

Originally posted by ASCII Man
Yeah, but especially with Parabolica it's essential to carry enough speed through or you lose out on the straight.
SO if he was running less wing, he should at least have a slower exit, right? (less downforce=less grip=slower cornering?)

I know that, but it is all about the compromise. Run less wing and you can make up for the slower exit speed on the straight. As I say it is the compromise - other wise if only exit speed was important all of them would run Monaco wings and exit Parabolica 15mph faster. If they did run Monaco wing they would be slower on the straight despite the faster exit speed.

less downforce=less grip=slower cornering is true, but so is
less drag=faster in a straight line

The trap is set along way from parabolica, so the few mph difference in exit speed is lost by the time they reach the trap.

I couldn't find a good head on shot of the Williams and Ferrari yet, but here is one of them both at the start.

Brundle mentioned repeatedly (both before and during the race) how Ferrari ran less wing and were quicker in a straight line. It is obviously what worked for them.

http://f1.racing-live.com/photos/200.../diapo_301.jpg
www.F1-live.com

Knowlesy · 14 Sep 2003, 16:27 (Ref:718610)

The Williams seemed to be running FAR too much rear wing!!!!

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 16:34 (Ref:718615)

www.f1-live.com

A rush job, but I think it shows a lot more wing on the Williams.

This is not a critisim of either Ferrari and Williams set-ups, only they know whether they got it right. One thing worked for one of them and another for the other probably.

Also that is not to say that Michael wasn't exitting the corners quicker either, but I think teh straight line speed mainly came fromt he difference in wings.

.

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 16:37 (Ref:718617)

Quote:

Originally posted by knowlesy
Willliams were expected to have the advantage at Indy but that was before the tyre controversy. It could be very different now I reckon.

This is true, we don' know what the new Michilin will be like at Indy.

Still there is a fortnight to go. do we know if there is any testing planned for the Michelin runners?

Montoya also said the new tyre made no difference in the press conference.

Knowlesy · 14 Sep 2003, 17:15 (Ref:718645)

Well from your pictures Adam it seems the Williams was running a significant amount more wing than the Ferrari although the shape of the Williams' wing may exaggerate this a bit. I can't understand why they did this: it may have been a tactic to save the tyres but I wouldn't have thought Monza was that punishing on tyres. It's a little baffling.

Stephenw · 14 Sep 2003, 20:15 (Ref:718806)

I think MS outdrove Montoya today and a lot of you can't accept it....

ASCII Man · 14 Sep 2003, 20:18 (Ref:718809)

Get off it yourself.

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 20:34 (Ref:718817)

Quote:

Originally posted by Stephenw
I think MS outdrove Montoya today and a lot of you can't accept it....

There isn't any need for this. Most here are saying that Michael drove a great race today. It would be dull if people just type "top race Schumi" and nothing else. There is plenty to discuss.

ralf fan · 14 Sep 2003, 20:35 (Ref:718819)

Williams were running more wing, you could visually see JPM getting closer under braking, but he never got close enough.As i said before key to MS's victory was keeping JPM behind on lap 1

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 20:38 (Ref:718822)

It is difficult to judge under braking because the effect of the slowing speed always makes it look like people are closing.

However, ralf fan, I think you are right the Williams looked a little nicer under braking. Just more grip from those tyres due to the higher downforce.

And lap 1 was clearly the key.

RT · 14 Sep 2003, 20:39 (Ref:718823)

Could it be that Williams had to run more wing to compensate for the new "non-expanding Michelin treads" and the ensuing loss of grip?

I think we finally saw a level playing field tyre-wise with both Ferrari and Williams making the most of whatever other assets they had. The difference was Schumi.

Cheers,

RT

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 20:47 (Ref:718827)

I wonder how close their two packages where. We shall never know. They lapped in about the same time, but seemed to achieve in different way.

For what it is worth I got the general impression that Schumacher had a little over Montoya in S2, but Montoya had a little advantage in S3.

Also it appeared that Scumacher found it a little easier to drive at the pace they were. He was very smooth all the time, whereas Montoya looked like he was on limit more to keep up. My guess was that there is little between the two packages, but the Ferrari shaded it. I was also very impressed how Michael stayed neat and tidy even when Montoya got close. Impressive.

Mr V · 14 Sep 2003, 21:18 (Ref:718843)

Quote:

Originally posted by knowlesy
I can understand Juan backing off but would we have seen that from Michael?

knowlesy, i advise you to watch Silverstone 2001. A race that Michael knew he wouldn't win from about 10 seconds into the race, he did no different from what JPM did today.

I'm all for going for it, until the WDC comes into play and common sense prevails, thats what JPM showed today.

Mr V · 14 Sep 2003, 21:20 (Ref:718845)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore

However, ralf fan, I think you are right the Williams looked a little nicer under braking. Just more grip from those tyres due to the higher downforce.

The Williams was better under braking due to the wing size imo. But whats the point of better braking when he couldn't get close enough to the Ferrari at the end of the straights?

GP Racer · 14 Sep 2003, 21:51 (Ref:718866)

The Williams car definetely looked smoother under braking, MS's Ferrari was letting out a cloud of dust evertime he touched the brakes. Rubens car did the same, but not nearly as often. Is there a problem there for Ferrari?

I watched the race on Speed Channel here in the states, and David Hobbs and Steve Matchett made the same mistake when Gene went by MS coming out of the pits. I haven't jumped off my couch that fast in a long time, but they realized there mistake pretty quickly, thus enabling myself to return to the prone position on the couch where my heart-rate soon returned to normal!

See you at Indy Michael!

**Adam43** · 14 Sep 2003, 21:58 (Ref:718872)

Ferrari told the ITV pit crew that there was no problem with the brakes. Brundle said that some pads and discs may just do this.

JohnSSC · 15 Sep 2003, 00:01 (Ref:718955)

Geez! For a long while JPM got skewered on the boards for being "too agressive" and not having "good racecraft" and a "first place or no place" mentality. So today he brings home the car (which clearly did not have the pace to win) in the next best position to winning and gets criticized for not being "entertaining."

In my opinion, JPM has really grown up this year. Not only has he learned the lessons of how to make a season a championship one, he is putting them into practice.

What a great season this has turned out to be!

Wrex · 15 Sep 2003, 00:15 (Ref:718961)

Agreed John.

Monty wasnt slow, nor did he give up. He drove the wheels off the Williams for as long as it was possible. Then when he realised he was just risking a failure or crash, he played the smart game (that any driver with an IQ over 50) and brought it home.

Valve Bounce · 15 Sep 2003, 00:44 (Ref:718989)

Only Ralf the Overtaker would have caught SchM today. This guy had all the guns: pole, better start, better top speed, good cornering. JPM drove smart, and he still has a great chance of winning the Championship. A trip into the bushes would have killed that chance.

GP Racer · 15 Sep 2003, 00:47 (Ref:718990)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Ferrari told the ITV pit crew that there was no problem with the brakes. Brundle said that some pads and discs may just do this.

You ITV viewers are lucky, we don't get any reports from the pits during the race. I'm sure that you get alot more good info over there than we do here. Maybe someday Speed Channel will think enough of F1 to send a crew to the races.

f1manoz · 15 Sep 2003, 03:17 (Ref:719070)

Lacklustre? Pur-lease!

In a car that was convincingly slower on the straights and clearly carrying more downforce, he STILL managed to put his car 2nd on the grid, barely one-tenth down, then sticks close to TGF for most of the race, but once he hit the backmarkers at just the wrong place, settling for second was the right option.

He was never going to get past TGF anyway, considering that TGF was flying down the straights.

JPM was smart enough to wait for Indianapolis.

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