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Old 11 Feb 2020, 23:52 (Ref:3957107)   #1
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The Historically Accurate EV discussion

I read an article that claims electric hybrids are more polluting that conventional petrol cars because people can't be bothered to charge them up on the mains ! It went into great detail that lost me after a couple of lines
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 06:46 (Ref:3957120)   #2
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What?
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 06:57 (Ref:3957121)   #3
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I read an article that claims electric hybrids are more polluting that conventional petrol cars because people can't be bothered to charge them up on the mains ! It went into great detail that lost me after a couple of lines
Reminds me of a colleague who I used to car pool with. They drove a plug in hybrid, and first time in they were keen to show me how they could complete the commute on electric only.

As your article suggests - never plugged it in, never drove on all-electric except when demonstrating to others how good it is!
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 08:21 (Ref:3957129)   #4
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I read an article that claims electric hybrids are more polluting that conventional petrol cars because people can't be bothered to charge them up on the mains ! It went into great detail that lost me after a couple of lines
Plug in hybrids are the problem, and as has been said (on more than one occasion ) on here, manufacturers desperate to avoid or reduce huge fines for not meeting the CO2 targets are churning them out left, right and centre. Majority will be driven by company car users in order to take advantage of lower BIK tax, and they won’t bother to install a charger at home if have to at their own expense! The whole state of affairs is ridiculous....
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 09:10 (Ref:3957144)   #5
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..............The whole state of affairs is ridiculous....
I concur. I'm also not certain what other European States are doing in this respect. I do know that they are rolling out charging stations on a pretty rapid basis. The principle of making tight timelines is a useful management tool when trying to change working practices, I'm not sure it works with us, the great unwashed.

The purchase cost of an EV is still prohibitive for many and this in itself will be the biggest problem. Then requiring all homes to go all electric is another one which will cost the populace loads of dosh. FWIW I don't see this as party political since whoever won the latest election would be backed into the ER/Saint Greta myth.

I've still got my name on the Mach E but I keep seeing Focus STs.........
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 10:04 (Ref:3957166)   #6
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I concur. I'm also not certain what other European States are doing in this respect. I do know that they are rolling out charging stations on a pretty rapid basis. The principle of making tight timelines is a useful management tool when trying to change working practices, I'm not sure it works with us, the great unwashed.

The purchase cost of an EV is still prohibitive for many and this in itself will be the biggest problem. Then requiring all homes to go all electric is another one which will cost the populace loads of dosh. FWIW I don't see this as party political since whoever won the latest election would be backed into the ER/Saint Greta myth.

I've still got my name on the Mach E but I keep seeing Focus STs.........
I don't know if this link will work on here, but I hope so, it's brilliant!

VID-20200210-WA0000 No, doesn't seem to unfortunately.

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Old 12 Feb 2020, 10:46 (Ref:3957172)   #7
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 10:48 (Ref:3957173)   #8
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
I concur. I'm also not certain what other European States are doing in this respect. I do know that they are rolling out charging stations on a pretty rapid basis. The principle of making tight timelines is a useful management tool when trying to change working practices, I'm not sure it works with us, the great unwashed.

The purchase cost of an EV is still prohibitive for many and this in itself will be the biggest problem. Then requiring all homes to go all electric is another one which will cost the populace loads of dosh. FWIW I don't see this as party political since whoever won the latest election would be backed into the ER/Saint Greta myth.

I've still got my name on the Mach E but I keep seeing Focus STs.........
Link to one of the FES papers .https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/...ecarbonisation

One of the reasons for all of the propaganda for EVs is so that they can use them as a battery storage for the grid . V2G . I did read that they wanted to be able to take back up to 20 GWh of energy from plugged in cars for when the blackouts come .That would be nice , finding that your car had all of its charge taken out of it one night .

But the car manufacturers are not very keen . Because Li batteries have a limited life of just so many charge cycles , the manufacturers are worried that a lot more battery sets would be failing within their guarantee period.

So I would be looking a bit closer at the Focus Peter .
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 14:03 (Ref:3957225)   #9
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I concur. I'm also not certain what other European States are doing in this respect. I do know that they are rolling out charging stations on a pretty rapid basis. The principle of making tight timelines is a useful management tool when trying to change working practices, I'm not sure it works with us, the great unwashed.

The purchase cost of an EV is still prohibitive for many and this in itself will be the biggest problem. Then requiring all homes to go all electric is another one which will cost the populace loads of dosh. FWIW I don't see this as party political since whoever won the latest election would be backed into the ER/Saint Greta myth.

I've still got my name on the Mach E but I keep seeing Focus STs.........
to be honest a full ev is a bit of a no-go for me too. i can't charge it at work due to parking logistics, and both my commutes are at the top end of the range for most anyway.

the hybrids are lovely but the combustion bit is so horrendously inefficient that for those of us who mainly do motorway miles, live in hilly areas and don't do much city nonsense they're just not appealing enough yet. it's obviously not far away, but it's too far away for there to be a significant penalty applied to people stuck using petrol cars with no public transport options.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 14:32 (Ref:3957228)   #10
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Frankly I don't advocate EVs for all. In my circumstances a long range vehicle (350ish miles) is good enough. Plus the savings on fuel etc. make sense. I've got approximately 10 years of driving left so with a home charger I'd be fine.

Towns are the big problem since not everyone can install a charger especially on a row of town houses.

The big worry is depreciation. Whatever you buy now will be worthless in ten years either because the batteries are dead, or nobody will be able to afford to run a ICE vehicle.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 15:29 (Ref:3957241)   #11
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The big worry is depreciation. Whatever you buy now will be worthless in ten years either because the batteries are dead, or nobody will be able to afford to run a ICE vehicle.
Producers of EVs are improving the battery situation all the time.
10yr old EVs are not worthless now, so why would it be different in 2030?
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 15:40 (Ref:3957243)   #12
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I think because they guarantee them for eight years but at ten years there's a strong possibility you'd need to replace them. Agreed the technology is moving rapidly.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 15:48 (Ref:3957247)   #13
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I think because they guarantee them for eight years but at ten years there's a strong possibility you'd need to replace them. Agreed the technology is moving rapidly.
I think the guarantees being given for such a long period are designed to allay fears of battery failure. There are lots of Prius' and Leafs (Leaves?) on the road with batteries over 10yrs in age that are still running fine (albeit with some sign of reduced capacity).

There are reports that suggest the battery failure of LEAF units (capacity reduced to below 80%) is a total of 3 in 35,000 over 5 years.

If we expect failure of the essential component in an automobile to fail shortly after the warranty expires, then Mercedes-Benz's should be dropping in year 4, Renaults in year 5, and Kias sometime in year 8.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 20:51 (Ref:3957314)   #14
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Producers of EVs are improving the battery situation all the time.
10yr old EVs are not worthless now, so why would it be different in 2030?
A couple of years ago Mrs97 did a project at Toyota near Derby for a few days. As part of her visit they gave her a guided tour - when it came to discussing the Prius (not part of her project) the Toyota engineers admitted they had absolutely no idea how long the batteries would last or how to recycle them both safely and cost effectively.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 21:21 (Ref:3957318)   #15
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A couple of years ago Mrs97 did a project at Toyota near Derby for a few days. As part of her visit they gave her a guided tour - when it came to discussing the Prius (not part of her project) the Toyota engineers admitted they had absolutely no idea how long the batteries would last or how to recycle them both safely and cost effectively.

Perhaps they could sell a few of the old ones to JLR for the iPace. They seem to have a shortage of batteries at the moment according to their press release about shutting down output for a while.


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Old 12 Feb 2020, 21:47 (Ref:3957320)   #16
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Producers of EVs are improving the battery situation all the time.
10yr old EVs are not worthless now, so why would it be different in 2030?
It says in that ad you linked to -
'range up to 70 miles' - how much good is that ffs? I'm only in the Thames Valley but it wouldn't reliably get me into London and back; certainly wouldn't allow me to nip down to see relos in Cheltenham or Brighton, or to visit Race Retro for the day, or to visit many of my racer pals. It's a joke....
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 21:55 (Ref:3957321)   #17
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It says in that ad you linked to -
'range up to 70 miles' - how much good is that ffs? I'm only in the Thames Valley but it wouldn't reliably get me into London and back; certainly wouldn't allow me to nip down to see relos in Cheltenham or Brighton, or to visit Race Retro for the day, or to visit many of my racer pals. It's a joke....
It only had a range of 85 miles at new. The point being, battery degradation is not that drastic at 10yrs, even on early EVs.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 23:05 (Ref:3957326)   #18
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Why is it always assumed that what we have now in the way of EVs are what we will have in the future? After all, the ICE of today bears no resemblance to what we see in the London to Brighton Run.

I've been doing a bit of research online, and I've found some postings from X-Xths dated January 1900:

"These stupid petrol engines, they're useless compared to a horse. Five miles per hour following a man with a red flag? WTF use is that, my horse goes faster blindfold. And they can't go more than a few miles without breaking down and needing adjustment. Any horse worth its salt will go for hours without slowing down. And they leak oil and leave stains all over the place! When my horse relieves itself it soaks into the ground, and its manure cultivates my roses. I'd like to see a car doing that...."

Plus ca change as Gerry Mo would say.
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 23:14 (Ref:3957327)   #19
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I think we have some good resources for the future. The fact we have many types of renewable energy all over the country shows how far we have come. We have many ways to keep going

The fact that we had to get used to changing technology shows we can continue to do that. I mean the horse and cart analogy shows how reluctant people were to change, but also shows how technology can take a while to get going

Certainly we can look back in a few years time like we have done with everything, like sport and technology and think how far we have gone
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Old 13 Feb 2020, 04:59 (Ref:3957350)   #20
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I think we have some good resources for the future. The fact we have many types of renewable energy all over the country shows how far we have come. We have many ways to keep going

The fact that we had to get used to changing technology shows we can continue to do that. I mean the horse and cart analogy shows how reluctant people were to change, but also shows how technology can take a while to get going

Certainly we can look back in a few years time like we have done with everything, like sport and technology and think how far we have gone

The change from horse drawn vehicles was, in large cities, fairly rapid for public transport and commercial vehicles since the benefits were clear (until taxes on fuels took a grip).

For personal transport in general it took somewhat longer - especially in the cities.

That said I recall feeding the milkman's horse when visiting my grandmother in a Midlands.

Grandmother in South London had, iirc, electric milk floats to deliver milk.

Now the floats that are still operating are diesel. I think around our way the electric floats that are available (if there are any left) would probably not have enough range for some of the routes they need to run.

If the current (excuse the unintended pun) shift to electric proves to be genuinely possible and accepted then it will happen anyway.

The the governments showing more "commitment" are having to juggle subsidies, energy price supports and legal threats to force matters suggests the public are not entirely buying into the concepts wholeheartedly.
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Old 13 Feb 2020, 08:08 (Ref:3957362)   #21
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My first (and only) electric experience was to drive a converted Golf in Holland in 2009; I was really impressed by the performance but have things really progressed in the intervening 11 years?

I shall be 80 in 2032 so at least I shouldn't have to bother about owning one!
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Old 13 Feb 2020, 08:58 (Ref:3957374)   #22
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I seem to be the only person on here that is excited and fascinated by the EV revolution.

It will work, we will sort it out I am sure. The ICE has had its day and will remain the preserve of enthusiasts, possibly only on approved race tracks. This gives a great opportunity to the future Deltas and Maxes to keep the sport going and build a niche business.

What we have at the moment is just a sticking plaster, the future will be very different. It's the first major change in three generations, and sorely needed.

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Old 13 Feb 2020, 09:49 (Ref:3957381)   #23
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I seem to be the only person on here that is excited and fascinated by the EV revolution.

It will work, we will sort it out I am sure. The ICE has had its day and will remain the preserve of enthusiasts, possibly only on approved race tracks. This gives a great opportunity to the future Deltas and Maxes to keep the sport going and build a niche business.

What we have at the moment is just a sticking plaster, the future will be very different. It's the first major change in three generations, and sorely needed.

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Would much prefer us to explore hydrogen power and the safe storage options.
Interestingly WrightBus in N Ireland was recently bought out from Administration by one of the JCB offspring who has an “hydrogen ice business” snd has put his engines in some WrightBus prototypes I think.
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Old 13 Feb 2020, 10:08 (Ref:3957383)   #24
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I seem to be the only person on here that is excited and fascinated by the EV revolution.

It will work, we will sort it out I am sure. The ICE has had its day and will remain the preserve of enthusiasts, possibly only on approved race tracks. This gives a great opportunity to the future Deltas and Maxes to keep the sport going and build a niche business.

What we have at the moment is just a sticking plaster, the future will be very different. It's the first major change in three generations, and sorely needed.

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Neither for nor against, really. As I already said, the performance is impressive but it's limited by the poor range. I live in the country & do very little city driving so it's currently (joke not intended!) of little or no use to me.
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Old 13 Feb 2020, 10:32 (Ref:3957386)   #25
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Tel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Video of a scientist talking about ICE versus Electric . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNRk4iGreSw
40 odd minutes , & he does waffle a lot , but shows that the ICE will still be the only thing for transport use .With over 90% of all goods vehicles , which use over 55% of road fuel. [ A large container ship would need a 1 million ton battery & aircraft will not get off the ground ]

This video will probably never get in the MSM , & Google will probably censor it as it does not comply with their left wing agenda , but it does tell a few truths .
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