V8ST - 2014/15

[Chappelli]

Here’s a curveball for you. Does the rulebook specify the number of “Pit Crew” or the number across the line at any one time... Could you argue that anyone materially assisting during a pit stop (with a few exceptions as listed in the rules) could be define someone as “Pit Crew” for that stop regardless of which side of the line they’re on.... That would assume the rule have a line in them that suggests someone is still considered “Pit Crew” while standing garage side of the yellow line.
If that’s the case, how many teams would be guilty of utilising more than 4 “Pit Crew” during a stop, by doing something like relaying “Pit Crew”?

Certainly looking at the Team 4 stop, the stop involved 5 Pit Crew, you may have needed a TV replay to see that all 5 were over the line at the same time, but it’s exceptionally obvious that there’s 5 people (what I would call “Pit Crew”) involved in the stop.

[BackSeat Driver]

6.13.3 Pit Stop conditions:

The following conditions will apply:

(a) Driver change: a driver change pit stop may be required in the Meeting
regulations and the pit window for such change shall be advised. During the
driver change work may be carried out on the Car, including but not limited to
the removal of windscreen tear offs and/or windscreen cleaning, however tyre
changes and refuelling are not permitted.


(b) Fuel stops: a compulsory fuel stop may be required in the Meeting regulations.
A minimum of twenty five litres (25 litres) must be added to the car as per Article
6.13.3(g). A Driver change is NOT permitted. Once refuelling is completed and
the Refuel operator and their associated equipment is wholly behind the garage
line additional work, including but not limited to the removal of windscreen tear
offs and/or windscreen cleaning, may be carried out on the Car, including tyre
changing.

(c) Pit Crew Numbers:
• Maximum Pit Crew permitted during the Pit Stop is four(4). This includes
the Refuel Operator and Car Controller directing the Driver to stop and go
with the use of a Pit Stop/Go indicator but does NOT include a fireextinguisher
operator or the Driver who has stepped out of the Car who
may only assist the replacement Driver to fasten his belts. Note: if the Car
Controller is behind Pit line then he is not counted in the pit crew
numbers.
• During Endurance races Pit Crew or other team members, except Pit Wall
signallers, must remain behind the pit lane yellow or white painted line
unless involved in a pit stop. They are to return behind the pit lane yellow
or white painted line when pit stop is completed.
(…)

(e) Permitted Equipment.
• All air bottles must be secured to the Pit Garage structure. Note: airline
gantries or pit booms are not permitted.
• No more than two(2) wheel nut guns may be used during the pit stop.
• Wheel nut guns may be either air powered or battery powered.
• No equipment may be left in Merge or Fast Lane.

(f) Work Conditions.
• A Driver change, or refuelling, or wheel/tyre changing may only be carried
out in the Working Lane.
• A Car may enter the pit garage to be worked on, the removal of a
damaged wheel or tyre is permitted.
• No Pit Crew, tyres or equipment may enter the Work Lane until the Car
has come to a complete stop.
• No work shall be undertaken on Rear Right Hand Corner while refuelling
is in progress.
• The rear wheels must be stationary at all times when the car is on air
jacks.
(…)

Reason:
Clarification of driver change and vehicle servicing requirements during pit stops.

[bluespur]

So try this. You are permitted 4 spelled to assist as pit crew. You have one person who stands behind the line but is reaching over to assist. I suggest that as soon as any part of that person is over the line then they are counted. If a team member is inside the line then they are not counted.

Suggest part of the issue is that ST do not have sufficient personnel trained to observe the detail of their rules which do seem to be simply added to as necessary rather than be managed. Unfortunately they do not appear to have one manager of the interpretation and clarification of their rules.

[Goat Boy]

They should make it that the driver has to do all his own pit work and nobody else is allowed to touch the car

[BackSeat Driver]

Originally Posted by bluespur

I suggest that as soon as any part of that person is over the line then they are counted. If a team member is inside the line then they are not counted.

Yep agree with you 100%
The moment you even tell 5 of your crew to suit-up and put helmets on you are already intending to break the rules.

Shame on you Team4, would love to hear your side of it but it would probably just involve Owen Evans waving his arms around and next round he will have built a chrome plated grandstand outside of his garage.

[raymond]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

Results have changed from race 3 with the Evans boys having 5 people over the line in the pits. V8st standards people said it didn't happen even with tv proof but a protest went to the stewards and the protest was upheld.

Murphy is sick of the favoritism so has raced his final race in the class so guessing there may be only 10 cars at the next round.

What was the penalty?

[GT 86]

BSD, you sure have sour grapes going on. Why arent you poking your stick at Murphy for the same sort of thing at Taupo? And speaking of Taupo and your beloved Cunningham team, why didnt you winge when he passed almost the whole field off the track to get to pitlane, a decision that may have won him the race but clearly in the rules you cant have all four wheels off the track and gain an advantage.

I think this is another grey area here. Was there a bulletin issued friday night at drivers breifing or was it a verbal discussion from Ross Thurston re pit stops and this new control line?

There was four people over the line here but five working on the car, its another cock up for sure. I have said it before, if its not in the rules you cant do it or seek clarification. This would save a lot of crap and headaches but its to late for that.

[GT 86]

Im hearing two penalties. First something like 80 points then out of the MSNZ wisdom box come penalty # 2, 50 seconds added to race time so I presume they lose further points. Two for 1 and Murph got zero then $750 for his second attempt.

Would like to hear if this is incorrect as it was late.

[Chappelli]

There’s both a specific exemption given for a car controller who is behind line and references to “Pit Crew” remaining behind or returning behind the white line, so logically speaking “Pit Crew” are not defined by which side of the line they’re on.

Therefore, if “Pit Crew” are “Pit Crew” before they cross the line and after they’ve crossed back over the line, you can only assume that “Pit Crew” are defined as anyone who materially takes part in a “Pit Stop” (regardless of which side of the line they’re on... hence the necessity to write a specific exception for a car controller who might not ever cross the line).

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by GT 86

There was four people over the line here but five working on the car, its another cock up for sure. I have said it before, if its not in the rules you cant do it or seek clarification. This would save a lot of crap and headaches but its to late for that.

There were 5 people over the line all at once, pretty simple, pretty obvious.
But the rules don't specify "numbers across the line"
(Yellow Line Added For Clarity)

There were 5 people taking part in the Pit Stop, all at once... Which personally, I can't see how that could ever be considered within any grey area of understanding.

That said, there was also another team who used a member of the Pit Crew to help pull the Refueler back across the line... There's no doubt that the person was materially assisting in the Pit Stop, yet they didn't appear to be wearing any safety equipment (Kind of dangerous when you're yanking a dude and fuel churn back towards you).

[20b]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

20b do you think the number maybe lower?

Almost certain of it. From what I've heard there aren't many looking at racing next season. I talked to two drivers of note over the weekend, both seemed very uncertain as to whether they'd be racing next year. But it really depends on who you talk to regarding SuperTourers situation. Some are saying everything will be okay, others are saying SuperTourers wont be here next February. But if they're anything like NZV8's they'll let five cars run and call it a race.

There'll probably be a few things said/published over the next couple of months I'd say.

[Jerico]

Murphy is getting out for one reason and that is because he has had to tip his own money in to the team. Like everyone else. Talk of Murphy getting out because of double standards is a joke.

The rule breaking in pit lane has been happening up and down pit lane, especially the last two rounds with fueling. The rule states the car can not be fuel until the car is in the air, which has been broken by many. Also the car is not to be dropped until the fuel man is back over the pit line and this rule is broken by so many, it's just not funny.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Jerico

Murphy is getting out for one reason and that is because he has had to tip his own money in to the team. Like everyone else. Talk of Murphy getting out because of double standards is a joke.

Not many if any professional race drivers would pay money to drive, and like him or loath him Murph is still a professional driver, and I for one would not expect him to be paying for a drive even if he is in the twilight of his career.

However if the real reason why Greg is packing his V8ST bag because its costing him money he shouldn't try to lay the blame for his frustration at no longer being the great driver he once was by finger pointing. Instead I think he should simply say something magnanimous like "Its been a great few years in V8ST and I have enjoyed every minute of it Blah Blah.

'Spewing' has never done any great sport person any favour's, and Murph is no exception to the rule.

[Chappelli]

Thought I'd go back and watch some pit stops, first one.. two cars, two pit crew, no helmets.... Seems that either the rules or safety is optional.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by raymond

What was the penalty?

80 points and a drive through to drop them to 4th

[Jerico]

I didn't say Greg was paying to drive.

[socram]

I'm not a dedicated fan of the series so have only taken a half hearted interest, but from my perspective, far from bullet proof rules, instead of going from strength to strength, it seems to have slipped into farce and is going downhill.

What I did note on the TV broadcast was Simon Evans was critical of Foggy for driving defensively. What did he expect? Foggy to back off and let him through?

[Chappelli]

In this case I don't think it's the rules, it's the enforcement of them.....

[flyingduck]

So I went on the ST website and nothing about the penalty, points aren't changed could you imagine if happened in Aussie v8's it would be everywhere

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

So I went on the ST website and nothing about the penalty, points aren't changed could you imagine if happened in Aussie v8's it would be everywhere

Ahhhhhh I hear the wing's of the Mallard Duck's flapping!

[BlueBlood]

Originally Posted by flyingduck

So I went on the ST website and nothing about the penalty, points aren't changed could you imagine if happened in Aussie v8's it would be everywhere

Don't bother checking the FB page for an update, breaking news 24 hrs ago yet to updated as promised. Hopeless.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by socram

What I did note on the TV broadcast was Simon Evans was critical of Foggy for driving defensively. What did he expect? Foggy to back off and let him through?

Ray, I thought you might like to know that there are very definite rules about blocking, and what Simon was complaining about was Foggy getting away with changing his line to block the overtaking car, with no penalty.

When Chris Abbott and I were responsible for the Series racing rules, you would get a bad sportsman flag for the first block and then a drive-through penalty for any further blocking, thats the way it is in V8Supercars and if you had not noticed [because your not a fan of V8 Touring car racing] that's entirely possible you were not aware of this racing rule.

So in short, no you are not allowed to block except in the last two lap's.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Ahhhhhh I hear the wing's of the Mallard Duck's flapping!

Ain't got a dog in the fight, but he's got a point.... It was "breaking news" on social media, over a day later no official detail has been released... Seems rather odd.

[GT 86]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

In this case I don't think it's the rules, it's the enforcement of them.....

Good point Chappelli but its actually both. With this new control line we asked what would happen if we crossed that with the car thinking that everyone would then be on side. We didnt get a clear answer but to be honest they have complicated the process even more that even they dont know the answer.

The category needs someone with some balls to stop this crap from continuing. I must say that we miss Didier as it was no where near as bad as this in previous seasons.

[flyingduck]

Originally Posted by GT 86

Good point Chappelli but its actually both. With this new control line we asked what would happen if we crossed that with the car thinking that everyone would then be on side. We didnt get a clear answer but to be honest they have complicated the process even more that even they dont know the answer.

The category needs someone with some balls to stop this crap from continuing. I must say that we miss Didier as it was no where near as bad as this in previous seasons.

But if the car crosses the line why not just put it in the bunker and have 10 guys doing the stop wait that's why the rule needed to be made in the first place.