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View Poll Results: Who is the greatest F1 driver?
Lewis Hamilton 22 22.00%
Michael Schumacher 11 11.00%
Juan Manuel Fangio 6 6.00%
Alain Prost 7 7.00%
Ayrton Senna 22 22.00%
Jackie Stewart 0 0%
Jim Clark 17 17.00%
Alberto Ascari 0 0%
Fernando Alonso 1 1.00%
Niki Lauda 3 3.00%
Stirling Moss 2 2.00%
Sebastian Vettel 0 0%
Nigel Mansell 1 1.00%
Nelson Piquet 0 0%
James Hunt 0 0%
Mika Hakkinen 0 0%
Giles Villeneuve 2 2.00%
Max Verstappen 0 0%
Nico Rosberg 0 0%
Jack Brabham 4 4.00%
Carlos Reutemann 0 0%
Jochen Rindt 0 0%
Ronnie Peterson 1 1.00%
Kimi Raikkonen 1 1.00%
Graham Hill 0 0%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28 May 2021, 14:15 (Ref:4053671)   #376
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I know this is going off topic but in this post there's mention of the dropped scores rule, and I've always wondered why there was such a rule?
I've seen reference to it being due to teams/drivers not participating in all events around the time when the WDC was first brought into existence. As a result, it was decided that a proportion of events would be counted so that multiple drivers could still be in contention.

It was the opposite approach to what had been used in the '20s and '30s, where you were penalised for not participating.
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Old 28 May 2021, 16:14 (Ref:4053682)   #377
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It was the opposite approach to what had been used in the '20s and '30s, where you were penalised for not participating.
So if that was brought back, Mazepin would be penalised?
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Old 28 May 2021, 16:17 (Ref:4053684)   #378
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So if that was brought back, Mazepin would be penalised?
For not participating, or not competing?
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Old 28 May 2021, 17:19 (Ref:4053688)   #379
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For not participating, or not competing?
You pays your money and takes your choice - quite literally!
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Old 29 May 2021, 09:13 (Ref:4053727)   #380
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I know this is going off topic but in this post there's mention of the dropped scores rule, and I've always wondered why there was such a rule?
To reiterate what crmalcolm said a few posts previous, I've also seen reference to many teams deciding not to contest all rounds of the championship. I can't remember the last time a major championship contending team decided not to race in every round of the championship (except on grounds relating to finance, health, respect of a deceased member of the community etc). However, I believe it was common enough practice in the World Rally Championship right into the 1990s and, hence, you would often see event winners coming from a pool of local privateers.
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Old 29 May 2021, 09:22 (Ref:4053728)   #381
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Although, just to add, that also may have been down to other obvious reasons like attrition...maybe someone else knows better.
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Old 29 May 2021, 11:17 (Ref:4053737)   #382
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I’ve read too it was so drivers wouldn’t lose out so much if their car was unreliable
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Old 29 May 2021, 11:48 (Ref:4053741)   #383
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I’ve read too it was so drivers wouldn’t lose out so much if their car was unreliable
Interesting - was that put forward as the reason for first introducing the rule, or for keeping it in later seasons?
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Old 29 May 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4053758)   #384
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Who is the Greatest F1 driver of all time?

It’s weird, I’ve yet to see any full explanation of why it was introduced in the first place. But I did read they introduced the best 11 scores due to concerns of reliability of the turbos
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Old 29 May 2021, 15:46 (Ref:4053761)   #385
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It’s weird, I’ve yet to see any full explanation of why it was introduced in the first place. But I did read they introduced the best 11 scores due to concerns of reliability of the turbos

The dropped score rule was introduced long before the turbo era.

The explanation given by crmalcolm in post #376 makes sense.



Back to who is the GOAT.
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Old 30 May 2021, 03:20 (Ref:4053788)   #386
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Lol well that depends on what we are agreeing on!!!!

To my point above, has Lewis benefitted from Mclarens support....yes, of course he has, but at the same time hes had to work his butt off to keep that support and if at any point he wasnt up to the task, he could have been dropped.

So if thats what we agree on, then yes i guess we do :-)
The only question I'd have about his time as a development driver is has there been anything about him that is overlooked when it isn't with other drivers?
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Old 30 May 2021, 05:56 (Ref:4053794)   #387
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I wonder if "drop your worst" might lead to better racing.
Would a driver be more likely to try a daring, spectacular pass, if he knew that if he crashed, he could drop that race and get no penalty?
At the moment he will settle for a lower place a some points are better than none. Add excitement as the drivers do the desperate

Its less of a Forced Gimmick than DRS that the purists hate

thoughts?
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Old 30 May 2021, 10:55 (Ref:4053813)   #388
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I wonder if "drop your worst" might lead to better racing.
Would a driver be more likely to try he could drop that race and get no penalty?
At the moment he will settle for a lower place a some points are better than none. Add excitement as the drivers do the desperate

Its less of a Forced Gimmick than DRS that the purists hate

thoughts?

If a driver attempted a daring, spectacular pass and crashed, and depending on how much damage was done to the car, the crash could eliminate them from the race without the need to drop the race.
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Old 30 May 2021, 12:16 (Ref:4053817)   #389
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I wonder if "drop your worst" might lead to better racing.
Would a driver be more likely to try a daring, spectacular pass, if he knew that if he crashed, he could drop that race and get no penalty?
At the moment he will settle for a lower place a some points are better than none. Add excitement as the drivers do the desperate

Its less of a Forced Gimmick than DRS that the purists hate

thoughts?
I'm not sure if this would actually be the result of dropped scores. Has it been the case in season's past? It would be interesting to see if so. I can't see teams nominating to forego contesting some rounds but I'd say the exact philosophy a team undertakes around dropped scores would vary. Ones with reliability issues would save the dropped scores for inevitable component failures, ones with inexperienced drivers would save them for inevitable mistakes and potential DNFs. The only ones who might benefit from 'daring' moves would be backmarker teams who rarely score points anyway - in the case of 2021 I'd be thinking Haas or Williams. But, in the case of Haas, they rarely snip at the heels of the top 10 anyway. A move like Russell/Bottas like the Russell/Bottas incident at Imola could, arguably, be justified from the point of view of being able to drop a score if it goes tits up. But, then again, why do something risky in that situation when you might not get that opportunity for several races? Hard to know what the result would be but I'd certainly take dropped scores over DRS ;-)
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Old 30 May 2021, 12:33 (Ref:4053818)   #390
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Personally, dropped scores is not something I would be in favour of reintroducing, simply because I believe that consistently should be rewarded over the season, and if one car is more reliable than the other in the title fight, that should be rewarded, rather than effectively cancelled.
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Old 30 May 2021, 12:43 (Ref:4053823)   #391
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We've strayed a bit from the GOAT - but whilst we are on the subject of 'dropping' races...

Personally, I think there is some scope in introducing a rule where teams have to nominate a substitute driver for two rounds of the season. Those nominations would be made ahead of the season, submitted in secret to only be revealed the weekend before the substitute is due to drive.

This would see the development drivers getting a chance to experience a full weekend, and the teams would have to be selective over which rounds their main driver(s) have to sit out.

Imagine the situation - Red Bull rest Verstappen for Monza, expecting it to be one of their worst tracks - and the substitute scores a race win!
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Old 30 May 2021, 13:23 (Ref:4053829)   #392
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Would LH have more or less titles if dropped scores/races were allowed?

Personally i think if reintroduced it would confuse things. Would moderns fans warm to the idea and is there anything comparable in modern sport?

Sports like gymnastics and figure skating drop lowest (and highest) scores and that is accepted due to the very subjective nature of their scoring...sometimes its so bad that i wonder if they can even be called sport anymore?

Bit biased because i have been following Simone Biles story...amazing how some are so adamant on denying a competitor's excellence simply because they can do things others cant. This one is particularly poignant to me but these are the times we live in.

Sports has to be about pushing the envelope and recognising the accomplishments of new talent.

Once it stops being that, its just a discussion topic resigned to the annals history imo.

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Old 30 May 2021, 15:03 (Ref:4053843)   #393
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I've never liked the dropped score rule, as is it penalises the driver for doing nothing wrong. Hopefully it will never come back.

I see the poll so far has a three way tie, between Clark, Hamilton and Senna.
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Old 31 May 2021, 07:39 (Ref:4054019)   #394
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I agree dropped scores shouldn't come back. We have enough complicated rules as it is.
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Old 31 May 2021, 12:13 (Ref:4054055)   #395
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I've never liked the dropped score rule, as is it penalises the driver for doing nothing wrong. Hopefully it will never come back.

I see the poll so far has a three way tie, between Clark, Hamilton and Senna.
Who’s scores shall we drop?
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Old 31 May 2021, 12:27 (Ref:4054059)   #396
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Who’s scores shall we drop?

No one's.
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Old 31 May 2021, 12:36 (Ref:4054060)   #397
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Who’s scores shall we drop?
Everyone else's - and rerun the poll with just those three choices?
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Old 31 May 2021, 12:54 (Ref:4054067)   #398
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Everyone else's - and rerun the poll with just those three choices?
This.
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Old 31 May 2021, 14:14 (Ref:4054073)   #399
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I've never liked the dropped score rule, as is it penalises the driver for doing nothing wrong. Hopefully it will never come back.
From posts in this thread and anecdotal evidence elsewhere, it seems that there are three reasons for dropped scores to have been introduced, or planned to be.

The first was in the outset of the initial WDC. At the time, most teams either couldn't afford, or opted not, to compete in every round. The schedules were inconsistent, and so in recognition of this a system of only recording a portion of these results was adopted. Over time, this also broke the season into two parts for scoring. (52Paddy refers)

The second was when dropped scores was retained over the whole of a season, when the season was no longer split in two. During this era of increasing turbo participation, there seems to be an opinion that this was to counter the reliability factor of turbo engines, possibly to encourage their development? (S Griffin refers)

Finally, there was talk of dropped scores being re-introduced for the 2020 season, as a result of COVID restrictions. The organisers were nervous about gaps on the grid from COVID-affected entries swaying the overall result of the championship. Ultimately this never happened, although it was apparently a very close to reality option.

Why are all of these linked - and in the context of GOAT. We have already discussed the impact of GOAT-ness based on factors outside of driver control. Are certain titles not as valued because of the car dominance, or because of overall season record? The same would have been true if a driver had lost the title in 2020 because of missing round(s) through COVID. And this is what all of the reasons for dropping scores have been designed to achieve - to allow a driver a 'fair' challenge on the title, taking into consideration factors beyond their control


If your team is only going to be entered into a certain number of rounds - then we'll allow you to 'drop' scores.
If your car is only going to finish a certain number of rounds - then we'll allow you to 'drop' scores.
If you are going to be excluded from participating in a certain number of rounds because of a pandemic - then we'll allow you to 'drop' scores.


With the current reliability, it seems unlikely that dropped scores will return. But if there is a circumstance arising that may mean a driver will have to miss events due to factors beyond their control, I think it should always remain an option on the table.
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Old 31 May 2021, 17:30 (Ref:4054085)   #400
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as a basic premise, i agree that nothing should be taken off the table as there may be scenarios (often unforeseeable) where it does make sense.

for example, if some venue wanted to pay a stupid amount of money to have (in season) F1 cars run but swap the drivers around (a what if race with Max in a Merc and LH in a RB for example), i would very much love to see that and would understand the need to exclude those results form the championship proper.

but im not sure i would accept a covid/health related reason to drop race scores though...then why not then allow for drops to mitigate any manner of health reasons from potential broken limbs to general fatigue?

in relation to the GOAT thread, perhaps perseverance though injury should not be dismissed as a GOAT attribute?

i accept that anyone can catch covid and being out there does expose drivers/team to extra risks they wouldnt otherwise be exposed to...but if the risk is equal among all the drivers should there still be scoring exemptions?

likewise, the team is still free to race their car and collect constructor points despite having to run a less experienced driver as their replacement or should constructors also be allowed to drop race scores as well?

and yes, talking about this in the abstract means i will only suggest scenarios that more easily fit my point of view on this!
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