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Old 18 Oct 2010, 06:50 (Ref:2776461)   #26
Roninho
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Originally Posted by helgi View Post
Herr Draeger said BMW is returning to its roots and it's touring car or silhouette racing, not sports cars.
Ok, can understand that one from BMW

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They already have an expensive F1 toy.
Yes, but that has little to do with this since the alternative for Mercedes to sportcars (DTM) is also costing a lot of money. Opel left DTM because they spent 30 million euro and they were the little spenders in the serie. Just imagine what the costs would be for Mercedes if DTM also ran in the US (and asia). You could run a very competitive LMP1 effort for that.

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Besides, BMW and Mercedes bosses have weidhed pros and cons before this step. If somebody thinks he's found some mistakes in their risk weighting then he should connect with Mario - maybe BMW Motorsport boss will change his mind, take his team out of that and employ that "somebody".
Using that logic we should end this forum.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 07:07 (Ref:2776469)   #27
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Calling Cow-poo on that one. Except for a brief period in the early 80s, Germany's top-series has always been production-based (or at least production-based looking), and that's what people here are looking for...
That seems logical with a history of 25 years of marketing and promoting the serie (if that doesn't make the serie popular, nothing will) in Germany.
But i got the impression that A1gp or champcar (when they raced here) got higher interest over here in the Netherlands then DTM does. And those series had no promotion of manufacturers like DTM does.

I'm just not a believer that people will buy more audi a4's because it is raced in DTM. Imo they buy more cars because the brand is marketed and receives attention by racing. And that could just as easily have been a formula car. By that logic it is more important to race in a serie that gets attention, and nothing against DTM, but i just think that sportcars or a formula like Cart attracts more interest from race-fans worldwide (assuming equal promotion).
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 07:26 (Ref:2776470)   #28
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Think the schedule would start with a Friday race at Daytona with the GA guy for the 24 hour? Would give you the full compliment of events but I didn't read any of the articles to see if they are starting with a Speedweek event leading up to the Daytona 500.
There's some speculation in the German press that the Daytona round would be a shared event between DTM and US-DTM, and I think that's a little too big for the Friday evening undercard slot. With the 24hours only starting at 3.30pm these days they could have the race at 1pm on Saturday... But I think they'd rather slot it in somewhere around the Daytona 500-week, if just to shorten the gap till the beginning of the European season a bit...
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 07:42 (Ref:2776476)   #29
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Well, now it's said that Audi, BMW and Mercedes are going to sell cars, not run them. Grand-Am boss said he welcomes exciting cars, not teams. The only reason to make that American series (from German side) is to make a new market for their silhouettes. They are going to make money on racing, not to spend. From this point of view it's getting clear, why they are working at DTM-style cars expansion and not Le Mans proto works entries.
BMW is not interested in formulae, so this fact should automatically close many questions.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 08:02 (Ref:2776489)   #30
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That's now what Marshall Pruett seems to think:

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The main question to be answered now is how the US DTM series will be populated. Through discussions with parties involved with the 2013 series, we understand the most likely scenario involves factory involvement from Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW, with an undetermined number of existing DTM teams running satellite programs in the USA on behalf of the DTM manufacturers.

The German DTM series currently serves as a playground for Audi and Mercedez-Benz (BMW will join for 2012), where full factory racing teams fight for the championship while a number of privately owned teams campaign DTM cars with some level of factory assistance. The same model is expected for the 2013 US DTM series, giving the three marques the chance to battle each other on American soil while completing the rest of the grid with US-based teams.

Details are still somewhat vague, but the opportunity appears to exist for GRAND-AM teams to expand into the US DTM series provided they reach an agreement with Audi, Mercedes-Benz or BMW.

Whether the US DTM series would be open to teams outside of GRAND-AM and NASCAR is unknown, but the fact that the DTM organizers expect to see the new series share the 2013 calendar with the NASCAR Sprint Cup and Nationwide Series could draw the interest from more than just sportscar and stock car entrants.
source: http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-based-series/
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 08:51 (Ref:2776513)   #31
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Well, now it's said that Audi, BMW and Mercedes are going to sell cars, not run them. Grand-Am boss said he welcomes exciting cars, not teams. The only reason to make that American series (from German side) is to make a new market for their silhouettes. They are going to make money on racing, not to spend. From this point of view it's getting clear, why they are working at DTM-style cars expansion and not Le Mans proto works entries.
As a standalone class during Grand-am weekends, or as part of grand-am current classes (with a changed rulebook)?

Whatever the class is going to be, it does make it a different business case for the manufacturers. And makes sense as well, basically expanding the formula for little costs (apart from the obvious b2b/vip things that i would spend some money on if i were them). It does raise the question if there would be enough teams with the $ to run the cars when the manufacturers are not going to fund the racing teams. That remains the problem for most series without manufacturer support.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 10:05 (Ref:2776565)   #32
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Mario Theissen said he's interested in customers program. So, if he's in, so they should run that program.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 13:33 (Ref:2776657)   #33
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There's some speculation in the German press that the Daytona round would be a shared event between DTM and US-DTM, and I think that's a little too big for the Friday evening undercard slot. With the 24hours only starting at 3.30pm these days they could have the race at 1pm on Saturday... But I think they'd rather slot it in somewhere around the Daytona 500-week, if just to shorten the gap till the beginning of the European season a bit...
Is it possible - to race on different track layouts in the same weekend? AFAIK, spectators park their cars on road-course parts during Daytona 500.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 14:44 (Ref:2776695)   #34
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Grand Am has raced on the morning of the Daytona summer race on the infield course... with the 500 being a bigger race than the summer race it might be different, though...
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 16:47 (Ref:2776741)   #35
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About the NASCAR events. I think this are the events:

Daytona (roval, summer race)
Indy (roval)
Watkins Glen
Montreal
Sonoma/Infineon
Road America
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 17:39 (Ref:2776764)   #36
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Indy (roval)
The conversion from road to oval at Indy is AFAIK a major PITA... that's why Grand Am, despite their test there doesn't run with NASCAR.
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 21:22 (Ref:2776862)   #37
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Looks like the new cars will be Coupes... (in German, run through translator of choice if necessary...)
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Old 18 Oct 2010, 21:37 (Ref:2776870)   #38
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http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1/
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 00:45 (Ref:2776911)   #39
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Ouch, that sucks. Then it's not Tourenwagen at all.

SK, remember that the Grand-Am tested at Indy road course. They could be adding a new race.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 01:38 (Ref:2776914)   #40
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mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
If they go the coupe route, BARF.

Goes outside of what I would consider "touring car" racing. Plenty of other 2 door series out there.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 06:37 (Ref:2776962)   #41
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Looks like the new cars will be Coupes... (in German, run through translator of choice if necessary...)
No problem.
Two things I understand from this article - BMW will race E92 instead of E90, but as for me there is no difference between E90 and E92. In general, I'd prefer current M3GT2 than aerodinamically shaped ugly A4R14.
And the second - DTM cars would race in VLN. We saw them in 2003, we'll see them in 2012. Welcome. VLN now has huge variety of cars, with GT3, GT4, S2000 and other worldwide categories.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 06:42 (Ref:2776964)   #42
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Let me take this as clear as I can be: that 'autoextremist' is a real scribbler.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 12:53 (Ref:2777096)   #43
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VLN should focus in less classes, that is one class per performance range.

Back to the non-Deutsch, non-Tourenwagen USDTM, ...

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Does Nascar still do the big show at Martinsville? The fans in those places are already having issues with Toyota, so sending BMW, Mercedes and Audi into that fray should gain front page on almost any news outlet in the world
That would be awesome! The track could work well, with tight, flat corners and short straights.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 16:45 (Ref:2777143)   #44
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Looks like the new cars will be Coupes... (in German, run through translator of choice if necessary...)
The artist impression of the BMW If this will be the look of the new cars DTM hasn't learned anything.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 17:17 (Ref:2777156)   #45
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I wouldn't say that Autobild artists have read something about new regulations. It's said that aerodynamics will be cut.
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Old 19 Oct 2010, 17:21 (Ref:2777160)   #46
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The artist impression of the BMW If this will be the look of the new cars DTM hasn't learned anything.
That's appearantly a recycled pic from two years ago...
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Old 21 Oct 2010, 16:54 (Ref:2778009)   #47
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Let me take this as clear as I can be: that 'autoextremist' is a real scribbler.
Peter de Lorenzo, it's his shtick - years of frustration and cynicism from being in Detroit watching the demise of the industry, he's to the point now where he self-recognizes he's an ******* and just goes with it

produces better articles that way

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(Posted 10/19, 6:00 p.m.) Detroit. Now that the short-attention-span generation has taken over the world and The Internet has distilled our daily lives down to a series of talking cat videos, vacuous celebutards emoting for the cameras and maniacal conspiracy theorists, we are reduced to a day-in, day-out slog made of blips, burps, bites and an occasional cogent thought every, oh, couple hours or so. And for some, that’s plenty. They usually can’t be pried away from their video games for any more time than that.

The rest of us? We’ll just have to suck it up and keep fumbling through our oh-so-outré printed newspapers and magazines, and digesting long-form TV news programs and on-line journals in a futile attempt at sifting through the rapidly deteriorating concept of what used to pass for rational public discourse, trying to make sense of it all. Or as Jerry McGuire once famously said, “I am out here for you. You don't know what it's like to be me out here for you. It is an up-at-dawn, pride-swallowing siege that I will never fully tell you about, ok?”

So here’s to the minions, the gamers, the coddled and the entitled, the I-don-t-give-a-****-just-ask-me hordes who want the world broken up in 140 character bits because anything more is just too tedious to contemplate. This column - the current state of the auto biz in digestible 140 character morsels - is for you.

Enjoy it. Or just count to one-one thousand and it won’t matter anyway.

GM Marketing: Joel Ewanick gets the band back together. Improved, intelligent - with a dollop of tenacity - but still a long, long way to go.

GM Marketing, Part II: Ad agencies Goodby (Chevy) and Fallon (Cadillac) grade “C” and “C,” respectively. Better, but not nearly good enough.

Chrysler: Perpetual Marchionne-driven “just you wait and see” state. We’re still waiting, they’re still dreaming. And the “new” 200? Oh. My.

Honda. Lost in the bland-tastic wilderness still searching for its mojo. When the Odyssey is their best product you know they’re in trouble.

Toyota: Arrogance still intact they’ve now allegedly rediscovered their Hot Rod Hearts. Jalapeño sauce on white bread doesn’t = credibility.

Mitsubishi: Missing in action for so long it just doesn’t matter anymore. Irrelevant, invisible and in need of a quick one-way ticket home.

BMW: Being all-things-to-all-people just wasn’t enough. Now the Niche Market Kings are hot for a lineup of FWD cars based on the Mini. Ugh.

Corvette: Achieved global respectability but long overdue for a makeover. The C7 can’t come soon enough but it’s unlikely to go far enough.

Ford: Mulally-led upward trajectory still going according to Plan. “A” management + “A” products + “A” marketing = continued market success.

Porsche: In spite of 4-door sedans and a burgeoning truck lineup, still enough sports car juice to stay cool with the hard-core faithful.

Mercedes-Benz: They still believe they’re the only automaker worth mentioning. The reality? It’s just another car company chasing a niche.

Audi: Confident, strong and sure of every move they make, these automotive Masters of the Universe show no signs of fatigue – or letting up.

VW Group: On a Dr. Piech-led, double-timed death march toward total world domination - or oblivion - depending on which way you look at it.

VW of America: Germanic automotive sweetness to soulless robot cars by 2018. Worst case of Toyota envy we’ve ever seen and a crying shame.

Mazda: When good, very good, excellent even, but a lack of consistent messaging beyond zoom-zoom has killed them. A new ad agency will help.

Acura: A rudderless mass of confusion with the most horrific design language in “the biz.” A car company with no raison d’etre whatsoever.

Infiniti: In a desperate race to reinvent itself yet again, this brand needs a transformational idea. By the looks of it, they got nothin’.

Lexus: The Pursuit of Perfect vanilla has its limitations. A foray into performance can’t change the fact that it’s rolling White Bread.

Subaru: Shiny happy followers, continues its inexorable climb. How far? No one really knows. The link-up with Toyota? The jury’s still out.

Nissan: Two steps forward, five back and an endless struggle for respect. New marketing direction is innovation. Really? That’s all you got?

Rolls-Royce: Until further notice, the very definition of “f--- you money” and the answer to the question that some people are still asking.

Kia: Straining to be something other than Hyundai’s little brother and now carving out a growing piece of the pie for itself. One to watch.

Range Rover: As long as people have money to burn on stuff they don’t really need, there will always be an overwrought vehicle for them.

Volvo: Backed with plenty of Chinese money and gaudy visions of grandeur, a brand still in search of an identity, naughty, or otherwise.

Electric Cars: A niche wrapped in an enigma in search of decent batteries and a sustainable infrastructure. Other than that, it’s all good.

Electric Car Zealots: A movement based upon a pipe dream and fueled by a fundamental refusal to accept reality, even when the truth hurts.

Jaguar: Some signs of life although the new XJ looks like a parade float, btw. Let’s face it - the C-X75 is the only Jag worth talking about.

Hyundai: Aggressive and irrepressible. Pure unbridled automotive ambition, Korean style. Caution, however, there will be bumps in the road.

Aston Martin: What’s not to like? But just how many variations on the same theme can they regurgitate? And no, the Cygnet doesn’t count.

Bentley: Part of Piech’s luxury stable, Bentley has exceeded all expectations. The refined Continental GT is simply gorgeous. More please.

Lamborghini: Another shining star in Piech’s luxury stable, but no matter how hard Lambo tries, it’s the perennial No. 2 Italian sports car.

Ferrari: High-Octane Truth & Beauty. When this red hot Italian sports car maker is “on” - as in the 458 Italia - it’s Dead. Solid. Perfect.

So there you have it, kids. The current state of the auto biz in 140 character bursts, if you’re into the whole brevity thing that is.

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Old 21 Oct 2010, 18:30 (Ref:2778050)   #48
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helgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridhelgi should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Anyway, it's too pessimistic to read before meal.
After looking at great Virginia autumn sceneries I think GA 2011 season will be very interesting. So, I'll have to watch that races to prepare myself for 2013:teams,pilots and so on.
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Old 22 Oct 2010, 00:10 (Ref:2778160)   #49
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Looks like the new cars will be Coupes... (in German, run through translator of choice if necessary...)
plse no coupes, no coupes!!
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Old 22 Oct 2010, 00:27 (Ref:2778163)   #50
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I think that the second and third aspects may be resolved (Opel is looking at possibly jumping in, and if they do, it wouldn't be hard to rebrand an Opel in North America as a Buick).
GM already rebadges the Opel Insignia as a Buick Regal in NA. Not sure how would a DTM Insignia stack up against the competition. Now that makes things interesting.

Ford will be launching the next gen Mondeo in NA again so that would be the likely global Ford representative. However, I don't think Chrysler has anything unless Fiat (Alfa Romeo) sends one of their cars over.
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