The Historically Accurate EV discussion

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A qualified discrediting of the IEEE - or just a disagreement between IMechE and IEEE?

Why should one Institute be more reliable than another? Is this a case of Mechanical Engineers and Electrical Engineers being in disagreement?

Not really , just that to get government money , papers were put out saying what other people wanted to hear , & not what most of the engineers knew to be right .
I think you will find that is general through a lot of institutions .

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well yes but then again this entire discussion is not historic.

However it may have some relevance Peter.

15 years (to 2035) is about the length of time I have been following Historic motorsport and not much longer than the time I have been enrolled here at tenths.

The point is that if that target is driven through the markets - for vehicles and their fuels and their service requirements - will start to change earlier and most likely decline.

If nothing else manufacturers of new vehicles will see little need to make stuff that offers any longevity and if the world continues with FF based motors but steadily ramps up the technical demands for pollution control - already an issue in the marketplace - they may simply stop providing vehicles in most ICE engine size categories well in advance of any outright ban. Indeed to some extent this is already happening.

If people see fuel stations disappearing they will realise that range concerns (or rather refuelling concerns) are starting to become an issue and will not want to invest in any product that is clearly likely to have a very short life (compared to the potential life that engineering and manufacturing methods could offer). I doubt there would be a 'long tail' to the existence of a market for ICE vehicles.

In turn that would suggest that Historic Motor Sport has some thinking to do within a generation (of new owners and drivers) from now.

Not the least would be that basically ANY ICE powered motorsport will effectively become Historic by default. And, after a short period, may only exist in other parts of the world, possible even totally outside Europe.

Something to consider perhaps?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Well yes but then again this entire discussion is not historic. I may send these posts to Parc Ferme.

Peter, as this topic is really not something that might usually be considered as suitable for a natter at a tea break or when standing around the water cooler, it probably deserves a thread of it's own.

However, as Grant states quite eloquently above, this will almost certainly affect historic racing in the nearish future and, as such, IMHO it would be quite justifiable to leave the new thread within Historic Racing.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Peter, as this topic is really not something that might usually be considered as suitable for a natter at a tea break or when standing around the water cooler, it probably deserves a thread of it's own.

However, as Grant states quite eloquently above, this will almost certainly affect historic racing in the nearish future and, as such, IMHO it would be quite justifiable to leave the new thread within Historic Racing.

Too darn right, I was about to say something similar, mighty interesting but far from amusing, which is the idea of Dalta's surely?

As Cliff Richard once sang 'Move It'

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Peter, as this topic is really not something that might usually be considered as suitable for a natter at a tea break or when standing around the water cooler, it probably deserves a thread of it's own.

However, as Grant states quite eloquently above, this will almost certainly affect historic racing in the nearish future and, as such, IMHO it would be quite justifiable to leave the new thread within Historic Racing.

As with a few others I was also going to say that it will inevitably have an impact on historic racing - look how long leaded or non-ethanol petrol remained readily available etc.

It is a topic I have discussed in my equivalents to tea or water cooler breaks.

[Gerard C]

So bauble, lets start with the beginning. What's your opinion about "La Jamais Contente"? Nice name…*

[Rudernst]

I for one will be happy when historic electric racing finally takes off !

what a privilege it would be to see the 1964 F1 electric V12 Ferrari back on the racetrack
12 armatures, arranged in two banks of 6 each
60 degree bank angle
12 armatures powering one central shaft via bevel gears
one crownwheel per two paired armatures driving one pinion each

groundbreaking technology then and now

beeing able to listen to the high pitched whine from the straight cut bevel gears at 12.000 rpm
as my father did in 1964 at the Nürburgring



RuE

[eamonn ledwidge]

At the other end of the scale:
1970–1979
Overview | James Dooge | Women in Engineering
Séamus Timoney and the Timoney Technology Group
The Electric Car | The Government in Merrion Street
An unusual vehicle on the courtyard in Merrion Street in the late 1960s and early 1970s was the electric car designed by Jim Lacy and Professor John Byrne of the department of electrical engineering. The car was initially conceived as a research vehicle for Byrne's research into low-loss drive systems and Lacy's into control systems, but became a substantial project in itself, attracting support and interest from a number of companies. Extensive research was carried out into ways to minimize loss mechanisms, and the car incorporated regenerative braking.

The car was declared roadworthy, taxed and insured, and Lacy used it for his daily commute. A newspaper article pointed out that this daily 20 miles cost three pence, the equivalent of '480 miles to the gallon of petrol,' and the top speed was just over 30 miles per hour. Ultimately the vehicle was limited by the battery technology available at the time, with the heater proving a particularly heavy load on cold mornings.

Built into a Mini Marcos body shell for Marcos Cars Ireland who built about 40. Sorry, I cannot find the pic of the car taken at Government Buildings in Dublin.

Time for you ingenious engineers to get weaving on historic electric cars.

[Gerard C]

The Scuderia should leave F1 for Formula E in 2021. Serious?

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

At the other end of the scale:
1970–1979
Overview | James Dooge | Women in Engineering
Séamus Timoney and the Timoney Technology Group
The Electric Car | The Government in Merrion Street
An unusual vehicle on the courtyard in Merrion Street in the late 1960s and early 1970s was the electric car designed by Jim Lacy and Professor John Byrne of the department of electrical engineering. The car was initially conceived as a research vehicle for Byrne's research into low-loss drive systems and Lacy's into control systems, but became a substantial project in itself, attracting support and interest from a number of companies. Extensive research was carried out into ways to minimize loss mechanisms, and the car incorporated regenerative braking.

The car was declared roadworthy, taxed and insured, and Lacy used it for his daily commute. A newspaper article pointed out that this daily 20 miles cost three pence, the equivalent of '480 miles to the gallon of petrol,' and the top speed was just over 30 miles per hour. Ultimately the vehicle was limited by the battery technology available at the time, with the heater proving a particularly heavy load on cold mornings.

Built into a Mini Marcos body shell for Marcos Cars Ireland who built about 40. Sorry, I cannot find the pic of the car taken at Government Buildings in Dublin.

Time for you ingenious engineers to get weaving on historic electric cars.

As others have pointed out , electric cars were about before ICE engined ones .
In the 150 odd years , they have been some improvements in electric motors which are now about 90% energy efficient , so no more than 1 or 2 percent improvements are possible for the future .
Battery technology has improved . Li has higher energy density than Lead , so that a lead battery works out at 3 times the weight .
But unless someone discovers a new magic material , which they haven,t done in the hundreds of years batteries have been around , there is only tiny improvements to come in the EV world .
Bosch are working on a new battery , which they hope in the future will be lighter , [ 400 odd Kg instead of 500 Kg for 100 KWh ] .
So only slight improvements are possible , & costs will almost certainly not come down .

But no doubt some will still keep saying there will be big improvements .

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

As others have pointed out , electric cars were about before ICE engined ones .
In the 150 odd years , they have been some improvements in electric motors which are now about 90% energy efficient , so no more than 1 or 2 percent improvements are possible for the future .
Battery technology has improved . Li has higher energy density than Lead , so that a lead battery works out at 3 times the weight .
But unless someone discovers a new magic material , which they haven,t done in the hundreds of years batteries have been around , there is only tiny improvements to come in the EV world .
Bosch are working on a new battery , which they hope in the future will be lighter , [ 400 odd Kg instead of 500 Kg for 100 KWh ] .
So only slight improvements are possible , & costs will almost certainly not come down .

But no doubt some will still keep saying there will be big improvements .

I disgree completely
lead acid batteries have been around for over a century
For a very long time improvements on this technlogy came in slow and steady
the last two decades in lead acid technology, from 1995 onwards saw them improve in leaps and bounds, sealed lead acid (no maintenance), glasfiber matted, gel
Especially Hawker made and makes amazing lead batteries, I have some still reasonably servicable at 10 years old

then came NiCad technology with the dreaded memory effect, and limited cycle time, history now, but in reality only 25 years old

Next was/is LiIon, very high energy density, but charging management and packaging is critical, remember those Samsung phone sbursting into flames

Cutting edge in mass market now are LiFePo batteries (DONT confuse them with LiIon Batteries). These require very sophisticated charging technology , "balancers" between the individual elements of the battery.
Only 3 years ago, one needed a special charger for these to manage the balancing. Now there are LiFePo batteries available with internal balancing installed. Effectively those batteries come with small computers fitted.
The performance of these new generation LiFePo batteries is nothing short of amazing even compared to the previos generation of LiIon batteries
They are a bit fiddly as they require a narrow window in charging voltage
Easy, once one understands the basics, just different from lead acid.
And yes, I ruined my first LiFePo through ignorance within a year. It came in a very special motorbike that someone else had built, and i did not immerse myself in the technology enough at the time

Lithium, iron and phosphor as elements have been known for ages
But the mass market technology of LiFePo batteries is not even 10 years old
What combination of known elements is tested in what laboratory to what effect, and what will come for out of this, well, watch this space !

The way we think of charging, batteries and intelligent electronic battery management is changing at an amazing rate
And if anything the gains are getting larger, not smaller

Battery cooling, battery preheating systems in EV cars are getting more sophisticated year by year, as simple as it sounds there is a lot of potential for optimasation left.

LifePo batteries for instance endure a good number of charge/discharge cycles, but the latest thinking is to minimise the numbers of cycles getting used up via intelligent charging management. Also, they almost discharge not at all when left alone, keep their charge for months without a trickle (in fact the convetional trickle charger will ruin them). Lead acid batteries discharge at a rate of 1 % per day and deep discharge within 4 months to the point of severe damage.

And yes, manufacturing technolgy of LiFePos is emerging, expect scale effects to happen and costs to come down.

There are videos on Youtube from a new generation of car tuners that play with EVs. These give an insight on what matters in EV internals. Mindblowing and a whole new world of expertise Think of them as the equivalent of what AMG and others did to combustion engines in the 1960ies.

And, yes I speak from my own first hand experience, both professional and private, looking after a large fleet of electric forklifts and my own motorbike collection.

To repeat my opening statement: No, I dont agree, yes there there be a lot more to come, and the innovation impact could accelerate

A very good benchmark is the original Tesla Roadster (yes, the one based on the Lotus Elise). Even that came in two completely different electric packages. The second generation vastly superior to the first.
Tesla are now offering an upgrade kit for the Roadster based on current battery technology to replace original batteries that have reached the end of their live (can only be fitted to 2nd gen cars). Again this is a huge improvement and serves as a benchmark of technical advance during the last 15 years. Same car, 3 generations of technology,
Id love to own one of those

BTW: personally I am a petrolhead, going to the office in 6 litre V12 Jaguar, but thats a different story
I am just open minded and curious, highly reccomened approach.

RuE

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

I disgree completely
lead acid batteries have been around for over a century
For a very long time improvements on this technlogy came in slow and steady
the last two decades in lead acid technology, from 1995 onwards saw them improve in leaps and bounds, sealed lead acid (no maintenance), glasfiber matted, gel
Especially Hawker made and makes amazing lead batteries, I have some still reasonably servicable at 10 years old

then came NiCad technology with the dreaded memory effect, and limited cycle time, history now, but in reality only 25 years old

Next was/is LiIon, very high energy density, but charging management and packaging is critical, remember those Samsung phone sbursting into flames

Cutting edge in mass market now are LiFePo batteries (DONT confuse them with LiIon Batteries). These require very sophisticated charging technology , "balancers" between the individual elements of the battery.
Only 3 years ago, one needed a special charger for these to manage the balancing. Now there are LiFePo batteries available with internal balancing installed. Effectively those batteries come with small computers fitted.
The performance of these new generation LiFePo batteries is nothing short of amazing even compared to the previos generation of LiIon batteries
They are a bit fiddly as they require a narrow window in charging voltage
Easy, once one understands the basics, just different from lead acid.
And yes, I ruined my first LiFePo through ignorance within a year. It came in a very special motorbike that someone else had built, and i did not immerse myself in the technology enough at the time

Lithium, iron and phosphor as elements have been known for ages
But the mass market technology of LiFePo batteries is not even 10 years old
What combination of known elements is tested in what laboratory to what effect, and what will come for out of this, well, watch this space !

The way we think of charging, batteries and intelligent electronic battery management is changing at an amazing rate
And if anything the gains are getting larger, not smaller

Battery cooling, battery preheating systems in EV cars are getting more sophisticated year by year, as simple as it sounds there is a lot of potential for optimasation left.

LifePo batteries for instance endure a good number of charge/discharge cycles, but the latest thinking is to minimise the numbers of cycles getting used up via intelligent charging management. Also, they almost discharge not at all when left alone, keep their charge for months without a trickle (in fact the convetional trickle charger will ruin them). Lead acid batteries discharge at a rate of 1 % per day and deep discharge within 4 months to the point of severe damage.

And yes, manufacturing technolgy of LiFePos is emerging, expect scale effects to happen and costs to come down.

There are videos on Youtube from a new generation of car tuners that play with EVs. These give an insight on what matters in EV internals. Mindblowing and a whole new world of expertise Think of them as the equivalent of what AMG and others did to combustion engines in the 1960ies.

And, yes I speak from my own first hand experience, both professional and private, looking after a large fleet of electric forklifts and my own motorbike collection.

To repeat my opening statement: No, I dont agree, yes there there be a lot more to come, and the innovation impact could accelerate

A very good benchmark is the original Tesla Roadster (yes, the one based on the Lotus Elise). Even that came in two completely different electric packages. The second generation vastly superior to the first.
Tesla are now offering an upgrade kit for the Roadster based on current battery technology to replace original batteries that have reached the end of their live (can only be fitted to 2nd gen cars). Again this is a huge improvement and serves as a benchmark of technical advance during the last 15 years. Same car, 3 generations of technology,
Id love to own one of those

BTW: personally I am a petrolhead, going to the office in 6 litre V12 Jaguar, but thats a different story
I am just open minded and curious, highly reccomened approach.

RuE

Yes , there are small improvements in battery technology to come in the future .
But electric motors cannot improve much in terms of power & range , so will still need the same amount of energy as today .
And the small improvements in batteries will only mean a slight decrease in weight , & very unlikely to get cheaper .
So EVs will not be getting a longer range , or much lighter .
And will still need the same amount of electrical energy from the grid to do the same as they are now in terms of performance .

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Yes , there are small improvements in battery technology to come in the future .
But electric motors cannot improve much in terms of power & range , so will still need the same amount of energy as today .
And the small improvements in batteries will only mean a slight decrease in weight , & very unlikely to get cheaper .
So EVs will not be getting a longer range , or much lighter .
And will still need the same amount of electrical energy from the grid to do the same as they are now in terms of performance .

Again, I completely disagree on "electric motors".
First there is no such thing as an electric motor anymore, that is 1990ies way of thinking.
An electric motor in anything that drives (i.e. dynamically more complex than a hairdryer) comes with its own set of electronic control unit.
Both units talk to each other and need to be set up to do that (thats called parametrisation), a black art.
What the motor does and how it interacts with the grid and a large part of its efficiency is determined by the electronics.
Example: many electric motors in vehicle drive applications are termed as "brushless DC motors", a contradiction in itself. Look closer and one finds out that the brushless DC motor actually is an AC motor that uses DC current with some clever electronics transforming one into the other.
90 % efficiency is a low number for efficiency, real word numbers are higher.

dont even get me started on magnetic field inductions, pros and cons of permanent versus coils.
who would have dreamed 20 years ago of 3 phase electric motors beeing powered via electronics by DC ? I certainly not

The next big challenge is coupling regenerative braking with batteries as very large currents have to be managed. Mechanical brakes are needed as safeguard simply because the electric energy cant be gotten rid enough quick enough. Managing seamless changeover from one to the other is very very complex. Overheated rear brakes in the current form of Formula 1 from 2014 to 2016 were caused by this problem, also many handling issues under braking.
As long as EVs have und use mechanical brakes A LOT of energy is wasted in disc brakes heating up air.

To say that are only small advances left in electric drives is excactly the same as stating in 1928 that the automoble has now reached near perfection and only small advances are left
This has been voiced in the late 1920ies....
Come have a ride in my 1931 Austin 7 Ulster, compare that to a modern car and You will get feeling of how much development potential is left

I am not really a fan of EVs, but I marvel at the technology.
Ah, and one more thing. Much of what happens in those huge generating windmills in terms of power electronics, frequency modulating, voltage control, grid compliance uses the same core technology as modern EVs.
Makes sense, once one realises that a car takes electric current and transforms it into variable speeds.
A wind generator does the opposite, takes variable speed winds and transforms them into electric current of defined voltages and frequencies
The first ones had reduction gearboxes and were quite mechanical and failure prone, the new ones are full of high energy electronics.
Wind generators went from 100 kw (Aeroman) to 5 megawatts and more, thats a 50.000 % improvement.
I remember the first experimental 1 MW windmill literally grinding itself to death within one year


RuE

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Yes , there are small improvements in battery technology to come in the future .
But electric motors cannot improve much in terms of power & range , so will still need the same amount of energy as today .
And the small improvements in batteries will only mean a slight decrease in weight , & very unlikely to get cheaper .
So EVs will not be getting a longer range , or much lighter .
And will still need the same amount of electrical energy from the grid to do the same as they are now in terms of performance .

Complexity brings short life and, typically, more opportunities for failure - especially failure of small components making larger, working components, unusable or uneconomic to adapt for commercial purposes.

The modern way has been to push things forward and demand complexity to solve "problems" - modern ICE engines and systems for example.

So engineering is now so good that engines can routinely be made to tolerances that can produce very high power output (i.e. good use of energy sources that might be redirected to economy rather than performance) for very long life spans - provided that the complexity of the total system - peripherals and controls - does not introduce higher potential for early failure. Early failure points to significant waste of materials, energy and capital even for components that have not themselves failed.

That's likely to be unsustainable.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

Again, I completely disagree on "electric motors".
First there is no such thing as an electric motor anymore, that is 1990ies way of thinking.
An electric motor in anything that drives (i.e. dynamically more complex than a hairdryer) comes with its own set of electronic control unit.
Both units talk to each other and need to be set up to do that (thats called parametrisation), a black art.
What the motor does and how it interacts with the grid and a large part of its efficiency is determined by the electronics.
Example: many electric motors in vehicle drive applications are termed as "brushless DC motors", a contradiction in itself. Look closer and one finds out that the brushless DC motor actually is an AC motor that uses DC current with some clever electronics transforming one into the other.
90 % efficiency is a low number for efficiency, real word numbers are higher.

dont even get me started on magnetic field inductions, pros and cons of permanent versus coils.
who would have dreamed 20 years ago of 3 phase electric motors beeing powered via electronics by DC ? I certainly not

The next big challenge is coupling regenerative braking with batteries as very large currents have to be managed. Mechanical brakes are needed as safeguard simply because the electric energy cant be gotten rid enough quick enough. Managing seamless changeover from one to the other is very very complex. Overheated rear brakes in the current form of Formula 1 from 2014 to 2016 were caused by this problem, also many handling issues under braking.
As long as EVs have und use mechanical brakes A LOT of energy is wasted in disc brakes heating up air.

To say that are only small advances left in electric drives is excactly the same as stating in 1928 that the automoble has now reached near perfection and only small advances are left
This has been voiced in the late 1920ies....
Come have a ride in my 1931 Austin 7 Ulster, compare that to a modern car and You will get feeling of how much development potential is left

I am not really a fan of EVs, but I marvel at the technology.
Ah, and one more thing. Much of what happens in those huge generating windmills in terms of power electronics, frequency modulating, voltage control, grid compliance uses the same core technology as modern EVs.
Makes sense, once one realises that a car takes electric current and transforms it into variable speeds.
A wind generator does the opposite, takes variable speed winds and transforms them into electric current of defined voltages and frequencies
The first ones had reduction gearboxes and were quite mechanical and failure prone, the new ones are full of high energy electronics.
Wind generators went from 100 kw (Aeroman) to 5 megawatts and more, thats a 50.000 % improvement.
I remember the first experimental 1 MW windmill literally grinding itself to death within one year


RuE

The most energy efficient machine is a transformer , because it has no moving parts , and that manages about 98 % energy efficiency .It is a pipe dream to expect any electric motor to get near that , so 90 to 92 % is the most that will happen .
No matter how you control it, that transfer of energy to power to drive a car , will always have a loss factor .

So the range of electric cars will never increase much , unless you can make one that weighs nothing , has no wind drag or rolling resistance .

Ain,t the laws of Physics a ***** .

[grantp]

https://www.jaguarlandrover.com/2020/project-vector

Adaptable platform EV pods to be tested from later this year.

This is not the only adaptable pod type EV system being developed with more than half an eye on autonomy.

One simple way of making EV pod development and operations cost effective would be to make them fully autonomous in an "autonomous only" world.

In other words simplify the requirements for autonomy by eliminating most if not all of the problem factors. The most obvious things to eliminate would be non-autonomous traffic and the concept of a driver.

Working with common, or at least shared and compatible, standards could also speed things along.

[crmalcolm]

In simple terms:

Electric engine energy efficiency - 90%
Combustion engine efficiency - <50%

With today's technology, it is clear that switching to EVs reduces the overall energy requirement.
The area to work on is distribution and storage of that energy, which is where the opportunity exists to create a less energy-dependant use of vehicles.

[Rudernst]

EV efficiency is only partially described by what happens in the actual electric motor
much more relevant, is the amount of energy goes into the battery against what actually arrives at the wheels

those numbers are currently not that good
small surprise
if one looks at watercooled batteries and watercooled electric motors
this is energy taken out of the battery converted into heat and dissipated elsewhere
again, lots of development going on there
preheating batteries before discharge
cooling batteries during discharge
look at the current controversy
Tesla Model S acceleration repeats against Porsche Taycan repeats
Tesla at 6th attempt is almost down to horse drawn acceleration as the whole system overheats and goes into limp mode

As to physics
full recuperation of energy, at least in city traffic
where little energy is lost to aero resistance and not a lot to rolling resistance
and most of it is stored as kinetic energy
which is killed by braking for a stoplight
10 % or 20 % saving potential by not needing mechanical brakes
if full recuperation would be possible
and yes, virtully none on motorways

RuE

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

In simple terms:

Electric engine energy efficiency - 90%
Combustion engine efficiency - <50%

With today's technology, it is clear that switching to EVs reduces the overall energy requirement.
The area to work on is distribution and storage of that energy, which is where the opportunity exists to create a less energy-dependant use of vehicles.

Electricity is only a small percentage of the UKs total energy use .
And we cannot produce enough for our own use . The last few years we have had to import about 5% via the interconnectors .

Now with the insanity of wanting to change all domestic heating to electric , this would require another 200GW of generation capacity .And that is without the extra needed for charging up EVs which would need a lot more ,[ just their 10 Million figure for cars would take about 40 GW to be able to charge twice a week ].

So , in terms of cost , 60 odd Hinckley Cs , £12000 Billion , plus the same again to upgrade the grid .

Total insanity .

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Electricity is only a small percentage of the UKs total energy use .
And we cannot produce enough for our own use . The last few years we have had to import about 5% via the interconnectors .

Now with the insanity of wanting to change all domestic heating to electric , this would require another 200GW of generation capacity .And that is without the extra needed for charging up EVs which would need a lot more ,[ just their 10 Million figure for cars would take about 40 GW to be able to charge twice a week ].

So , in terms of cost , 60 odd Hinckley Cs , £12000 Billion , plus the same again to upgrade the grid .

Total insanity .

At least you're keeping positive about the future!

[Gerard C]

Very interesting and documented talk, thanks for that. But about batteries and potential pollution what is/are the best. From zero to full dismantlement. Who and what is involved?

[grantp]

With Climate Change and a warming world, we are told, we should be expecting more flooding along the lines of or worse than the UK is presently experiencing.

Ok, it happens every once in a while in many places and quite frequently in some places. Although after a few dryish years the planners seem to forget about that and allow developments that can be almost guaranteed to make the flood effect worse than before. If for not other reason that someone will have spent money on building something probably expensive where the water wants to be when things get a bit moist.

Never mind.

Tesla will solve the problem and supply their own infrastructure to make it happen.

As can be seen here ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqR4Rf6yeko


Wellies required.

[Gerard C]

Thanks. This video floats your boat I'd say…

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

Electricity is only a small percentage of the UKs total energy use .
And we cannot produce enough for our own use . The last few years we have had to import about 5% via the interconnectors .

Now with the insanity of wanting to change all domestic heating to electric , this would require another 200GW of generation capacity .And that is without the extra needed for charging up EVs which would need a lot more ,[ just their 10 Million figure for cars would take about 40 GW to be able to charge twice a week ].

So , in terms of cost , 60 odd Hinckley Cs , £12000 Billion , plus the same again to upgrade the grid .

Total insanity .

I was a little bit out on my calculations for the cost of upgrading the generation capacity & grid .
In a paper just published by a former head of the national grid & a scientist specialising in electric generation & distribution , the total cost for upgrading everything for the planned future low/no CO2 scenario , would be £3,000,000,000,000.
https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uplo...FESnetzero.pdf

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

I was a little bit out on my calculations for the cost of upgrading the generation capacity & grid .
In a paper just published by a former head of the national grid & a scientist specialising in electric generation & distribution , the total cost for upgrading everything for the planned future low/no CO2 scenario , would be £3,000,000,000,000.
https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uplo...FESnetzero.pdf

Interesting paper. A conclusion that jumped out was:

'The Gas and Nuclear scenarios, by comparison with all the National Grid scenarios, are inexpensive, secure, require little new transmission or distribution grid expansion, and no development of augmented ancillary response services.' - or in other words, no need for doom and gloom, we just need to make sure research is focused on the right areas.