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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:12 (Ref:4045159)   #106
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post

For those who voted Senna as being greater than Hamilton - what would Hamilton have to do to move ahead of Senna in your opinion?
That is a fascinating question, and one which I believe Hamilton himself should ask the F1 fans. I doubt he would ever say it, but I’m sure that for someone like Hamilton who has become the most successful driver of all time, the next step is to make sure you are considered by the majority of fans to be the Greatest of all Time. He often talks about wanting to promote human rights as the next step in his career, but he has his entire life to do that, and only a few years left to prove himself as the undisputed GOAT of Formula 1. If the twelve people who voted Senna (and all those who think someone else is the greatest, like Clark or Schumacher) as the GOAT all agree that the thing Hamilton needs to do is to perform heroics in an uncompetitive car, then I believe he should leave Mercedes (after winning his eighth title) and sign for someone like Williams to do just that.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:17 (Ref:4045160)   #107
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If the twelve people who voted Senna (and all those who think someone else is the greatest, like Clark or Schumacher) as the GOAT all agree that the thing Hamilton needs to do is to perform heroics in an uncompetitive car, then I believe he should leave Mercedes (after winning his eighth title) and sign for someone like Williams to do just that.
As one of the 12, it wasn't just that for me. In fact, performing in an uncompetitive car wasn't one of my criteria. For me, the feeling is far more.... visceral.... (if that's the right word). Does Hamilton excite me in an F1 car in the way that Senna did? No. But that's not really his fault.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:31 (Ref:4045165)   #108
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After hesitating between head or heart, I voted with the guts. I think the word is right.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 17:59 (Ref:4045176)   #109
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As one of the 12, it wasn't just that for me. In fact, performing in an uncompetitive car wasn't one of my criteria. For me, the feeling is far more.... visceral.... (if that's the right word). Does Hamilton excite me in an F1 car in the way that Senna did? No. But that's not really his fault.
I think visceral is exactly the right word for it.

Just to clarify - I'm not saying that those who voted against Hamilton in any round are wrong - just trying to get an understanding of why. This bracket was spun out of conversation of Hamilton being a potential GOAT, and so I am interested in the reason for that to not be the case.

Who knows - maybe the bracket (and GOAT discussion) is a snapshot in time.
When Senna was in his prime, perhaps Fangio was the visceral GOAT? What is interesting is that in two brackets now, Senna has emerged victorious over the most successful driver of all time.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 18:59 (Ref:4045191)   #110
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And there must be a reason, eh? After all, I didn't vote 12 times.......
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 19:59 (Ref:4045211)   #111
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Just to clarify - I'm not saying that those who voted against Hamilton in any round are wrong - just trying to get an understanding of why.
Are you sure that voting for Senna means obviously you vote against another? And vice versa. Hamilton or anyone…
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 21:08 (Ref:4045222)   #112
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Are you sure that voting for Senna means obviously you vote against another? And vice versa. Hamilton or anyone…
Well said. I didn't vote against Hamilton, I voted for Senna.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 21:39 (Ref:4045226)   #113
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So - from what you have explained - it is the standard of car being driven that contributes to the 'greatness'?

I can totally understand that - and see where you are coming from. It's obviously difficult under current F1 circumstances, because the best car in the field has appeared obvious. Maybe if Red Bull can consistently be the fastest car this season, but Hamilton takes a title it will see his standing rise?

I did also ponder how 'dominant' Hamilton's cars have been, and so I took a look at a comparison of Hamilton's first 10 seasons compared to Senna's - and particularly their respective team-mates as a guide to how much was car and how much was driver.
     
SeasonSennaTeam-mate(s)HamiltonTeam-mate(s)
113pts-9th3pts-16th109pts-2nd109pts-3rd
238pts-4th33pts-5th98pts-1st53pts-7th
355pts-4th3pts-13th49pts-5th22pts-12th
457pts-3rd7pts-12th240pts-4th214pts-5th
590pts-1st87pts-2nd227pts-5th270pts-2nd
660pts-2nd76pts-1st190pts-4th188pts-5th
778pts-1st43pts-4th189pts-4th171pts-6th
896pts-1st43pts-4th384pts-1st317pts-2nd
950pts-4th49pts-5th381pts-1st322pts-2nd
1073pts-2nd11pts-9th380pts-2nd385pts-1st
Which suggest to me; if Hamilton is to be more consistently considered the GOAT he needs his team-mate to start finishing 3rd or lower in the WDC?

If Red Bull were to be dominant and Lewis still became WDC it would naturally increase his stock. However, it's not only the car's dominance but the team as well as they don't make many wrong calls.


Your table of team mates' comparison is interesting but if you add the last 4 years to Lewis's table it makes the Mercedes' superiority even more marked.


I can't say the suggestion (made by others) that he should change to an inferior team to prove his worth holds any merit. Why would he even contemplate it and is there any precedence?

I agree with Ayse - I also didn't vote against Hamilton.
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Old 8 Apr 2021, 22:30 (Ref:4045235)   #114
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There are times when SLH had pulled off moves or wins that have made me think 'wow' but that hasn't happened for a while now.

I've always rated the drivers who pull off the unexpected or audacious passes or outdrive their car or an opponent in a better car on a regular basis more than championship titles.

There are a select few pedallers who match that criteria imo.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 01:02 (Ref:4045242)   #115
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And there must be a reason, eh? After all, I didn't vote 12 times.......
Me too.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 01:03 (Ref:4045243)   #116
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There are times when SLH had pulled off moves or wins that have made me think 'wow' but that hasn't happened for a while now.

I've always rated the drivers who pull off the unexpected or audacious passes or outdrive their car or an opponent in a better car on a regular basis more than championship titles.

There are a select few pedallers who match that criteria imo.
Last victory that really impressed me was Turkey last year. Not that I think more recent wins were worthless, but we are talking top drawer here.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 02:08 (Ref:4045249)   #117
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Turkey was great. Silverstone on 3 wheels was a really good bit of driving.

If a driver has fewer wins, does that make their wins appear more unique/special while by contrast, make the driver with many more wins look formulaic/mundane?
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 02:12 (Ref:4045251)   #118
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That’s an interesting thought. Gilles, for instance, has a handful of victories, but some good ones in that.

So what we were saying is that Hamilton is diluting his legacy by winning too much
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 07:37 (Ref:4045262)   #119
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That’s an interesting thought. Gilles, for instance, has a handful of victories, but some good ones in that.

So what we were saying is that Hamilton is diluting his legacy by winning too much
Well there maybe truth in that!

My interest has risen in F1 a bit more again only because of the potential that the likes of Max, Charles et al have of stopping one driver and team winning all the time.
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Old 9 Apr 2021, 11:30 (Ref:4045298)   #120
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Well there maybe truth in that!

My interest has risen in F1 a bit more again only because of the potential that the likes of Max, Charles et al have of stopping one driver and team winning all the time.

Looks like you might just get your wish Max this year
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