I may have found Andy Rouse's XR4Ti - Page 2

GORDON STREETER · 30 Jul 2007, 20:23 (Ref:1976668)

OK I had a good chat to Andy at the weekend and he told me about the Sierra in question. There were two built in 1985 for the BTCC (that he won)
Based on the lhd American Merkur 2.3 lt 4cyl turbo injection pinto engined model it was 330bhp with a 5sp xtrack box. The roll cage mounts were for the then legal alloy cages. He seems to think them both being sold to Gullivers Travels in New Zealand and actually raced one himself in the Wellington street race that year. He also added that he "thought" that both were turned into RS 500s ?
There was also a third "show" car built for Ford for the 1985 Cologne motor show with spider web paintwork.
I also spoke to two of the guys that made them and after looking at the pictures they are 99% sure that your car is one that they made !
Also JD said for a vast fortune he would look at it and verify it !
The holes in the front wings were for the air jacks and fire ex.
Yes its probably a genuine Rouse car for what its worth , maybe some of our New Sheepland posters could throw some light from their side ?

Al Weyman · 30 Jul 2007, 20:29 (Ref:1976672)

Wow that'll make his day Gordon! Bloody shame the old rust bug has got to it but I dare say some clever person could resurrect it.

jeek · 30 Jul 2007, 21:38 (Ref:1976722)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

OK I had a good chat to Andy at the weekend and he told me about the Sierra in question. There were two built in 1985 for the BTCC (that he won)
Based on the lhd American Merkur 2.3 lt 4cyl turbo injection pinto engined model it was 330bhp with a 5sp xtrack box. The roll cage mounts were for the then legal alloy cages. He seems to think them both being sold to Gullivers Travels in New Zealand and actually raced one himself in the Wellington street race that year. He also added that he "thought" that both were turned into RS 500s ?
There was also a third "show" car built for Ford for the 1985 Cologne motor show with spider web paintwork.
I also spoke to two of the guys that made them and after looking at the pictures they are 99% sure that your car is one that they made !
Also JD said for a vast fortune he would look at it and verify it !
The holes in the front wings were for the air jacks and fire ex.
Yes its probably a genuine Rouse car for what its worth , maybe some of our New Sheepland posters could throw some light from their side ?

So im a bit confused? Is it the spider web car or one of the Rouse Xr4Ti's?

Thanks very much for youe help hunting the info down.

brown dog · 31 Jul 2007, 09:35 (Ref:1977011)

Interesting that.................. so while you may have a "genuine" Rouse car, being only a show car and having no race history or real Motorsport parts on it, it is questionable whether it is worth spending bucketloads of money on it in a restoration project.Interesting car for sure, but not really worth anything IMO. Gullivers Travel is owned (or used to be before it was floated) by Andrew Bagnall, he has been around NZ Motorsport for some years now, and raced an RS500 in the 1989 Wellington street race, this could have been one of those converted cars maybe? Andy Rouse raced at the 1986 (not 1985, I have the race on tape) Wellington race in the XR4Ti, and was going well until he stuck it into the concrete wall on the front straight.

GORDON STREETER · 31 Jul 2007, 12:42 (Ref:1977208)

As I stated Andy "thought" that both went to NZ but maybe it was only one. Unfortunatly a lot of things aren't written down in a busy race team as they just want to get on with the next project. My wife keeps a day to day diary and could tell me what we were doing on a certain day 30 years ago. This may seem a strange thing to do but it has become invaluable over the years on some very important issues. The mist of time does cloud over a lot of things but this car is there to be seen and I doubt if it is a lookalike.
Paintwork is difficult (unless dipped) to get rid of in awkward paces and can give good clues as to what colour it originally was. I would think that the guys that made the original 3? would know what it is.

jeek · 31 Jul 2007, 13:56 (Ref:1977270)

I can have a look to try find the orig colour. The chasis plate thats on it says it was mercurary grey and it matches with the chasis number on the floor under the seat. Would it of originally had a chasis number or has this been added over the years?

**Aysedasi** · 31 Jul 2007, 15:40 (Ref:1977361)

I still think the whole business is absolutely fascinating........

racer69 · 31 Jul 2007, 17:02 (Ref:1977440)

The Wellington '86 car was at the time only recently purchased by David Oxton, who got Rouse to partner him in the 1986 Wellington 500 (did they run at Pukekohe the following week too?)

Oxton did a few Australian Touring Car Championship races in 1986 (still in Rouse '85 BTCC colours), but by the time Bathurst came around the car had been purchased by Mark Petch, who ran Robbie Francevic & Leo Leonard in the 1986 James Hardie 1000 (car now plain white).

Not sure what happened to the ownership thereafter, but the car appeared in the January 1987 Wellington 500 wearing #1 with Port Macquarie sponsorship, being driven by Andrew Miedecke/(insert name?) Hall. Not sure what happened to the car after this, but it was plain white.

At the start of 1987 Neville Crichton imported an '86 spec Eggenberger XR4ti, running it in the 1987 January Wellington 500 with Steve Soper, plus running the first ATCC round, with Denny Hulme taking the car over for a few ATCC rounds there after. I believe i read somewhere that Mark Petch ended up purchasng this car, over time converting it to RS500 specs and eventually to the New Zealand 'TranNZam' specs, but i'm not sure.

I don't recall any other XR4ti Sierra's racing down here, doesn't mean they didn't though of course.

I don't recall Andrew Bagnall having an XR4ti Sierra. He was still racing Corolla's in 1987 (had a tie-up with Chris Hodgett's, Bagnall partnered him at Spa, Hodgett's came to Bathurst & Wellington). In 1988 he started running an RS500 (ex-OXO shell from 1987 from memory) teaming with Andrew Miedecke in 1988 and 1989. In 1990 the car ran at Bathurst in a beautiful multi-coloured livery (same as 1989) but prepared by the Stone Brothers at Kevin Waldock Racing (Waldock was a Miedecke sponsor in 1988 & 1989), with Robbie Francevic as co-driver.

I hope this helps in some way, doing it all from memoey....at the same time hoping it doesn't confuse things more

jeek · 31 Jul 2007, 17:28 (Ref:1977458)

The info is a great help ans the more info the better but i am even more confused now! haha.

cheers for all your help everyone! any more info would be great!

Al Weyman · 31 Jul 2007, 19:05 (Ref:1977547)

If you do decide to do anything with it please stick the right engine in it a Turbo American Pinto as fitted to the Mustang and Thunderbird etc. not a Cosworth that would kill the character of the car especially if you butchered the rear window mullion out so it looked like a Cossie which lets face it are a dime a dozen but this could be different.

KA · 31 Jul 2007, 19:28 (Ref:1977566)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

The Wellington '86 car was at the time only recently purchased by David Oxton, who got Rouse to partner him in the 1986 Wellington 500 (did they run at Pukekohe the following week too?)

Oxton did a few Australian Touring Car Championship races in 1986 (still in Rouse '85 BTCC colours), but by the time Bathurst came around the car had been purchased by Mark Petch, who ran Robbie Francevic & Leo Leonard in the 1986 James Hardie 1000 (car now plain white).

Not sure what happened to the ownership thereafter, but the car appeared in the January 1987 Wellington 500 wearing #1 with Port Macquarie sponsorship, being driven by Andrew Miedecke/(insert name?) Hall. Not sure what happened to the car after this, but it was plain white.....

....I don't recall Andrew Bagnall having an XR4ti Sierra. He was still racing Corolla's in 1987 (had a tie-up with Chris Hodgett's, Bagnall partnered him at Spa, Hodgett's came to Bathurst & Wellington).

According to the 86 Bathurst annual, Oxton bought the car on behalf of Motorsport Pacific Ltd, a consortium of NZ businessmen. I'm sure I've read that Bagnall was part of Motorsport Pacific, so although he might not have owned the car directly himself, he may have been involved with it at some point? Interestingly, the entry list in the Bathurst book has the Petch XR4Ti entered under Motorsport Pacific's name...

Motorsport Pacific entered an Escort RS1600i at Bathurst, for Bagnall and Ted Jarvis. The Escort was also sourced in the UK, an ex-Richard Longman chassis- I think the John Jefferys Engineering car used by Richard Belcher in the 1985 BTCC

jeek · 31 Jul 2007, 19:58 (Ref:1977588)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

If you do decide to do anything with it please stick the right engine in it a Turbo American Pinto as fitted to the Mustang and Thunderbird etc. not a Cosworth that would kill the character of the car especially if you butchered the rear window mullion out so it looked like a Cossie which lets face it are a dime a dozen but this could be different.

Id love to make it back into a XR4Ti but i dont have time or money to do it! So im trying to find out as much info as possible so someone else can return it to its former glory!

jeek · 31 Jul 2007, 20:01 (Ref:1977590)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Also JD said for a vast fortune he would look at it and verify it !

Who is JD and how much is a vast fortune?

brown dog · 31 Jul 2007, 20:35 (Ref:1977613)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

Paintwork is difficult (unless dipped) to get rid of in awkward paces and can give good clues as to what colour it originally was. I would think that the guys that made the original 3? would know what it is.

Gordon, I think you may have misunderstood my post. I believe the car our man here is most likely the real deal. However, because it was only a "show" car, and probably had no motorsport parts, and no race history, it has very little intrinsic value, and therefore no real value besides. Interesting piece though.
Mark Petch certainly owned one of these (race)cars at least, I looked at purchasing it about ten years ago. Hardly recognisable from its original from, it had "Thundersaloon" body kit fitted, RS500 window "conversion" including wing, bumpers and skirts,and very wide BBS centrelock wheels. It ran a 2.4(?) litre Cosworth YB. It was sold recently for around NZ$10K, less engine, box and diff, and needing a major restoration.

GORDON STREETER · 31 Jul 2007, 21:06 (Ref:1977636)

brown dog I agree about the value but I think that this may not be the "show car" I should have questioned Andy and the boys a bit more but I think that he said the base colour was silver. I may be wrong on this but as I had a problem with my car on Sunday I ran out of time to keep grilling him. I'll email him and try and get a little more info. jeek JD was one of Andy's men and has been around touring cars for a long time and was there at the weekend along with one of the other guys that built the cars. I won't give any names on here but I can get in touch with them via Andy

brown dog · 31 Jul 2007, 21:33 (Ref:1977659)

Just took another look at the pics, I guess you could be right there Grodon. Looks like original cage has been removed and another (nasty!) one fitted, also evidence of rear air jack mountings which have been plated over. A lot of mods done to this shell that you would not do on a show car. Even IF it is a real one, with real history,I would still question whether it is worth restoring? The cost of a proper restoration would probably exceed what the car is worth anyway once complete. I know some people like a challenge and enjoy doing this sort of stuff (you Poms especially!) but it would be a massive money pit. One or two of these original (pinto 2.3) race engines were at an engine builders just up the road from me until not long ago, who used to do the work for Mark Petch. A friend of mine has one of them sitting in his garage. A LOOOONG way from this car unfortunately!
If it were mine and I could verify its authenticity, I would advertise it as such and would probably try to make a dollar out of it, it will probably be more than what the next guy who restores it wil make!...........

KA · 31 Jul 2007, 22:18 (Ref:1977687)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brown dog

Even IF it is a real one, with real history,I would still question whether it is worth restoring? The cost of a proper restoration would probably exceed what the car is worth anyway once complete. I know some people like a challenge and enjoy doing this sort of stuff (you Poms especially!) but it would be a massive money pit....If it were mine and I could verify its authenticity, I would advertise it as such and would probably try to make a dollar out of it, it will probably be more than what the next guy who restores it wil make!...........

If it is one of the actual race cars and not a show car, then it's possible value is an interesting question...

To recap the history Gordon posted, Rouse built two XR4Tis in the 1985 season- one he raced himself and won the championship, the second appeared as a second car in a couple of BTCC rounds and the TT at Silverstone. One then went to NZ at the end of 85, and the other was used by Rouse in 1986.

Depending on which car went to NZ, we're talking about a car with at least a good number of race wins in the BTCC, driven by the most successful driver in the history of the championship- in BTCC terms, it's a reasonably important car....

On the other hand, so far there doesn't seem to be the same amount of interest in historic Group A cars in the UK that there is in Australia- as a comparison, any idea what a Group A car, with a substantial history of success in the hands of one of the top drivers, say an ex-Brock or Grice Commodore, would now be worth in Australia in relation to the cost of a major restoration?

brown dog · 31 Jul 2007, 22:49 (Ref:1977701)

At the time 10 years ago that I was looking at the Mark Petch "thundersaloon" he (Mark) told me that this was the 1985 BTCC winning car, hard to prove I guess but that is what I was told, and this is the only XR4Ti that I KNOW of here. There are a couple of nice RS500's advertised recently on racecarsdiect.com, a Rouse Labbatts car at 42000 pounds and an Eggenberger Texaco RS500 at 50000 pounds.Five or ten years ago these cars were selling for half that. The Rouse car as you say IS an important car (especially the championship winning car) but at what cost? Is it worth 25K pounds restored? Or even 30? Could you restore it for that? Could you find the parts required to make it reasonably authentic? Hard questions to even answer.
Famous Australian touring cars have been fetching drug money recently, A$500 000 is not an uncommon number now for an important car. So certainly makes one worth restoring if you buy it for the "right" money.

jeek · 1 Aug 2007, 06:06 (Ref:1977849)

Browndog how would you go about confirming its authenticity?
Gordon im keen to confim this cars ID so any more info from the mystical JD or anyone else would be great.

brown dog · 1 Aug 2007, 06:17 (Ref:1977856)

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeek

Browndog how would you go about confirming its authenticity?
Gordon im keen to confim this cars ID so any more info from the mystical JD or anyone else would be great.

I think the answer to your question lies in the second sentence you posted! Chassis tags are usually a good way, but these can be faked easily, and these are only of use if you have some evidence from whoever built the car as to what chassis numbers went where.And a lot of the time they have been removed anyway.Does the V5 document give any clues? Otherwise it is real detective stuff,tracing the owners back to whoever built it if possible, studying old video footage and photos for clues of unusual parts on the car which help identify it, which should be easier for a car where only a handful were built, as opposed to mass produced race cars such as the E30 M3.

jeek · 1 Aug 2007, 06:48 (Ref:1977869)

Quote:

Originally Posted by brown dog

I think the answer to your question lies in the second sentence you posted! Chassis tags are usually a good way, but these can be faked easily, and these are only of use if you have some evidence from whoever built the car as to what chassis numbers went where.And a lot of the time they have been removed anyway.Does the V5 document give any clues? Otherwise it is real detective stuff,tracing the owners back to whoever built it if possible, studying old video footage and photos for clues of unusual parts on the car which help identify it, which should be easier for a car where only a handful were built, as opposed to mass produced race cars such as the E30 M3.

cool! I dont have a V5 for it so no help there! :-(

racer69 · 1 Aug 2007, 16:35 (Ref:1978364)

An interesting post here from the thread linked to in the original post

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....2&postcount=12

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

According to the 86 Bathurst annual, Oxton bought the car on behalf of Motorsport Pacific Ltd, a consortium of NZ businessmen. I'm sure I've read that Bagnall was part of Motorsport Pacific, so although he might not have owned the car directly himself, he may have been involved with it at some point? Interestingly, the entry list in the Bathurst book has the Petch XR4Ti entered under Motorsport Pacific's name...

Certainly sounds plausable. Another factor in this is that when Bagnall got his RS500 in 1988, it as far as i know (i'm still to check up on it) the shell he got was an ex-Oxo Supercube Motorsport spare from 1987. Oxo of course got their 'kits' from Andy Rouse Engineering......

brown dog · 1 Aug 2007, 21:26 (Ref:1978598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

An interesting post here from the thread linked to in the original post

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....2&postcount=12

Certainly sounds plausable. Another factor in this is that when Bagnall got his RS500 in 1988, it as far as i know (i'm still to check up on it) the shell he got was an ex-Oxo Supercube Motorsport spare from 1987. Oxo of course got their 'kits' from Andy Rouse Engineering......

that is what I am thinking happened, it was first turned into an RS500, then Petch bought it and turned it into a thundersaloon

**GTRMagic** · 1 Aug 2007, 23:34 (Ref:1978668)

Quote:

Originally Posted by racer69

Certainly sounds plausable. Another factor in this is that when Bagnall got his RS500 in 1988, it as far as i know (i'm still to check up on it) the shell he got was an ex-Oxo Supercube Motorsport spare from 1987. Oxo of course got their 'kits' from Andy Rouse Engineering......

Mr Bagnall got a shiny new chassis for the 1988 season, Mr Miedecke retained the car built after Mr Smith's Sandown 1987 rollover.... which was written off and destroyed at Lakeside 1989...

racer69 · 2 Aug 2007, 06:31 (Ref:1978779)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Bagnall got a shiny new chassis for the 1988 season, Mr Miedecke retained the car built after Mr Smith's Sandown 1987 rollover.... which was written off and destroyed at Lakeside 1989...

Checked up on this and yes thats correct.

Colin Bond bought a car off Don Smith at the start of 1988, along with an agreement that he would also take delivery of a shell Don Smith was awaiting delivery of from Europe. However when the shell arrived Miedecke had done a deal with Andrew Bagnall to have the shell, and Bagnall got it.

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