Honda Withdrawl from F1

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Not to score points - but did Matra fall into that category?

I think you are right. They sometimes raced the MS7, an F2 car, in the 1967 F1 season and I think it had a Ford engine. The Matra V12 came in the following year with the MS11.

[peebee2]

I realise now that you perhaps originally meant constructing chassis came first then engines came later, but I think the following have done chassis and motor.

Ferrari
Alfa Romeo
Honda
Matra
Gurney (Gurney-Weslake)
Renault
Bugatti
Mercedes
Toyota
BMW
BRM
Osella (re-badged Alfa)
Maserati
Porsche
Vanwall
Aston Martin
Zakspeed

Maybe Bristol too

Some of those ran other motors first.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I realise now that you perhaps originally meant constructing chassis came first then engines came later, but I think the following have done chassis and motor.

Yes, first as a chassis constructor and then engines as well.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Yes, first as a chassis constructor and then engines as well.

Cheers, certainly Matra, Gurney and Osella then. I’m sure there’s one more but I can’t remember who.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Cheers, certainly Matra, Gurney and Osella then. I’m sure there’s one more but I can’t remember who.

Osella re-branded the Alfa-Romeo 890T as the "Osella V8" but I always thought the Eagle Mk 1 or T1G, was designed around the Gurney-Weslake V12, though it initially raced with a Coventry-Climax engine.

[S griffin]

Sauber also when they entered in 93 with Merc engines rebadged as Sauber

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Sauber also when they entered in 93 with Merc engines rebadged as Sauber

That was different, in that Mercedez and Sauber were already in a partnership, that started in Group C in '80s, with Sauber effectively becoming the works team for Mercedez.

[wnut]

McLaren ran their own modified Cosworths through Nicholson too.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

That was different, in that Mercedez and Sauber were already in a partnership, that started in Group C in '80s, with Sauber effectively becoming the works team for Mercedez.

But Merc were originally going to enter under their own name, until they changed their mind and let Sauber do it

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But Merc were originally going to enter under their own name, until they changed their mind and let Sauber do it

There's a bit more to it than that. IIRC, the Mercedes/Sauber partnership came about because Mercedes decided not to plough money into on their own Group C team, until they had time to develop the M117 5.0L turbo V8, which was a production based engine. Therefore, Mercedes turned to Sauber to create a chassis for them and initially to run the team before Mercedes took on a larger role.

[S griffin]

I’m talking about the F1 project, not sportscars. Sauber decided to go it alone after Merc decided not to do it. But yes they were quite successful together in sportscars. It was completely different in F1, although Sauber deserve credit for the way they ran the F1 team with the budget they had, even if they could have done a bit better

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I’m talking about the F1 project, not sportscars. Sauber decided to go it alone after Merc decided not to do it. But yes they were quite successful together in sportscars. It was completely different in F1, although Sauber deserve credit for the way they ran the F1 team with the budget they had, even if they could have done a bit better

The F1 project came about because of the Group C project. Anyway, this is far removed from Honda and RBR.

[S griffin]

It would have happened either way

Anyway you have to say well done Honda for sticking with RBR. Whatever happens in the future with the team, they have certainly made a success of this partnership

[chillibowl]

they really have and look forward to whatever form Honda's next venture into F1 will bring.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It would have happened either way

Anyway you have to say well done Honda for sticking with RBR. Whatever happens in the future with the team, they have certainly made a success of this partnership

But it didn't, it started with the Group C project.

Getting back on topic, Honda sticking with RBR was made possible by the engine freeze. As this article from Planet F1 says: ''The Milton Keynes squad was not keen on taking on the costs of developing the engine and pushed hard for an engine freeze for 2022.''

The article is worth reading.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bu...eal-formality/

[merak1974]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I realise now that you perhaps originally meant constructing chassis came first then engines came later, but I think the following have done chassis and motor.

Ferrari
Alfa Romeo
Honda
Matra
Gurney (Gurney-Weslake)
Renault
Bugatti
Mercedes
Toyota
BMW
BRM
Osella (re-badged Alfa)
Maserati
Porsche
Vanwall
Aston Martin
Zakspeed

Maybe Bristol too

Some of those ran other motors first.

I think OSCA should be added to the list of chassis+engine manufacturers in F1.

[Sodemo]

Its ironic that when involved in F1 during the 2000s Honda only hit the big time effectively after they had left when the car they developed became Brawn for 2009. Now they are almost repeating history with years being off the pace, they have finally found form but plan on leaving.

[S griffin]

Honda missed a big opportunity in the 00s, good job they developed a great car for Brawn to take over. They probably aren’t interested in F1 anymore and I do worry for Red Bull’s future without them

[crmalcolm]

Possibly for inclusion in the race thread when that appears - Red Bull will race with a Honda livery this weekend (it would have been the Japanese GP on the original calendar).





'The white paint is inspired by the Honda RA 272, which secured the company’s first F1 win in Mexico in 1965 at the hands of Richie Ginther.

Max Verstappen and Sergio Perez’s cars will carry the word arigato (Japanese for thank you), a sentiment that will also appear on the rear wing of sister team AlphaTauri’s cars.'

[Richard C]

Want to see better shots, but so far the livery looks fantastic.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Want to see better shots, but so far the livery looks fantastic.

Richard

A massive improvement on the now very dull RB default livery.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

A massive improvement on the now very dull RB default livery.

I was thinking the same thing. With relatively small variations, RBR has run the same livery for a long time.

Richard

[Richard C]

In other Red Bull/Honda news. A few more details on how Red Bull work work next year and beyond. I think the broad strokes remain the same (Honda doing most everything in 2022, but the engine is (from a supplier perspective) from the new "Red Bull Powertrains Ltd" (RBP) company. In 2023 RBP will take over operations from Honda.

Newer info...

I don't follow this closely, but it seems that Honda has multiple "racing" related subsidiaries. "Honda Racing Development" HRD which seemed to have previously focused on F1, "Honda Racing Corporation" HRC which seems to focus on motorcycle racing (however in it's past it was more than just motorcycles) and "Honda Performance Development" HPD which is the motorsports arm of Honda USA. It looks like Honda is folding all or parts of HRD (F1) into HRC (Motorcycle). With HRC managing the ongoing support for RBR and AlphaTauri in 2022 and maybe beyond.

Some of the UK based HRD employees will transfer over to RBP

Red Bull and Honda will continue to cooperate in various motorsports including young driver development

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...-2022/6682320/

Richard

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I was thinking the same thing. With relatively small variations, RBR has run the same livery for a long time.

Richard

Definitely a nice change, although might be hard to tell from the Alphas from a distance

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Definitely a nice change, although might be hard to tell from the Alphas from a distance

Are you not thinking of the 2020 cars?

2021 Alpha:


Red Bull Honda Tribute:


the 2020 Alpha was predominantly white: