Too Much Historic Racing?

[terence]

Chunder, have you checked the costing and licence requirements for VLN? I think you might just change your mind.

[Derwent Motorsp]

I am puzzled by Chunder does not wish to be a member of a club. Surely motor clubs are the life blood on the sport? I am a member of our local club and the MGCC are both give me a huge amount of pleasure.
In the case of all types of motorsport other than racing, being in a club will allow you to compete in other club's events at regional or national level.
I would agree though that in racing far too many clubs operate at a "closed to club" level and don't really welcome people who just want to do one off events.
For example look at the entry lists for two very different events this weekend; the Tour of Cheshire Historic Rally and the Malcolm Wilson (stage) Rally and you will see people entered from a huge number of clubs. That does not happen with most racing clubs.

[John Turner]

As a (currently unpaid) organiser of races, who puts in at least 1000 hours a year to make them happen, and as a member of FISCAR which whilst it has some sponsorship money is not a commercial enterprise, I have to say that the charging of an annual registration/membership fee (£40) is absolutely essential to ensure that we stay in the black each year. If you want to race with us why would you not wish to acknowledge this effort by paying what must be the cheapest part of your racing year.

We are happy for anyone with an eligible car to run with us, even as a one off but we have to gain the confidence of the clubs we race with (VSCC, HSCC, BDC, CCRC & MGCC) by providing good sized grids, so it's not unreasonable to hope that many of our members race with us several times during the course of the season. We don't have the funds to buy grids, so we have to ensure that the meeting organisers don't lose money on our races.

[Heightswitch]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

I am puzzled by Chunder does not wish to be a member of a club. Surely motor clubs are the life blood on the sport? I am a member of our local club and the MGCC are both give me a huge amount of pleasure.
In the case of all types of motorsport other than racing, being in a club will allow you to compete in other club's events at regional or national level.
I would agree though that in racing far too many clubs operate at a "closed to club" level and don't really welcome people who just want to do one off events.
For example look at the entry lists for two very different events this weekend; the Tour of Cheshire Historic Rally and the Malcolm Wilson (stage) Rally and you will see people entered from a huge number of clubs. That does not happen with most racing clubs.

I am just puzzled by chunder??

has raced, hasn't raced, doesn't like noisy cars, Doesn't like organisations or establishments….I have re-read a few of his posts over the last few threads and the contradictions just don't add up.

N.

[Mike Harte]

JT, I think that everyone understands the financial implications that exist for FISCAR if they don't charge a registration fee, but unfortunately this also applies to other race organisers, so that £40 can be multiplied many times over for a driver/entrant.

I don't think that this is a new problem, either. I seem to recall that we complained to Redex back in the sixties because the championship ran during meetings organised by various clubs, so we were having to pay for memberships as well as entry fees for virtually every race for the Redex Championship.

In the end, common-sense prevailed, and we were allowed to enter races provided we had, and I can't quite remember this clearly, to have membership of either the BRSCC or the BARC or maybe it was both, but I do know that I was a member of them both for a time.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by John Turner

As a (currently unpaid) organiser of races, who puts in at least 1000 hours a year to make them happen, and as a member of FISCAR which whilst it has some sponsorship money is not a commercial enterprise, I have to say that the charging of an annual registration/membership fee (£40) is absolutely essential to ensure that we stay in the black each year. If you want to race with us why would you not wish to acknowledge this effort by paying what must be the cheapest part of your racing year.

We are happy for anyone with an eligible car to run with us, even as a one off but we have to gain the confidence of the clubs we race with (VSCC, HSCC, BDC, CCRC & MGCC) by providing good sized grids, so it's not unreasonable to hope that many of our members race with us several times during the course of the season. We don't have the funds to buy grids, so we have to ensure that the meeting organisers don't lose money on our races.

But someone parting with 40 quid John, is no guarantee that they are going to turn up for a race....actually quite the reverse I would have thought. Registration of £600 that will get them there! but if they are umm ing and arrr ing they are not going to lose anything if they don't turn up...if they don't pay the entry. You would be better off taking deposits....but, they don't want to pay them either....trouble is, your Organising Club has to immediately in order to secure the circuit!

I stand by what I say, registration is an outdated way of trying to get commitment from the competitor but, the pickers and choosers who don't have the money don't want to spend (if you add them all up) several hundred or maybe up to 1000 on membership "registration" (HSCC want theirs, MGCC, CSCC, VSCC, etc etc)

The admin of the particular cost of a race should be included in the entry fee. Membership should be automatically given to someone who wants to race (providing they don't misbehave but put that in ya t's and c's) and make it as easy as possible.. You want to race with us this week fine...you don't, you want to race somewhere else, your choice...no worries. I can't believe we live in the 21st century but motorsport is convinced its still the 1950's and everything is done like that because "well...we've always done it like that"...nonsense x (not having a go at you by the way...just the concept of "registration...the old fashioned way!")...

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

In the end, common-sense prevailed, and we were allowed to enter races provided we had, and I can't quite remember this clearly, to have membership of either the BRSCC or the BARC or maybe it was both, but I do know that I was a member of them both for a time.

Mike, I recall that 'back in the day' if a race meeting was organised by, say, BARC they also accepted entries from invited clubs such as BRSCC, Notts Sports Car Club, etc. and vice versa.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Mike, I recall that 'back in the day' if a race meeting was organised by, say, BARC they also accepted entries from invited clubs such as BRSCC, Notts Sports Car Club, etc. and vice versa.

it is the same now

As an Organiser you are allowed to "invite" up to 15 other clubs to your meeting even on a Clubman Permit. What you cannot do is run a round of their championship on a clubman permit, you can only run your own.

[Derwent Motorsp]

A National B status event can invited up to 45 clubs, or 2 associations and any number of championships. If more clubs did this then there would be no need to continually join clubs to to one race.
It happens in all other sorts of motorsport, I can do speed events all over the north and Scotland under WMC and just about all the UK under MGCC.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

A National B status event can invited up to 45 clubs, or 2 associations and any number of championships. If more clubs did this then there would be no need to continually join clubs to to one race.
It happens in all other sorts of motorsport, I can do speed events all over the north and Scotland under WMC and just about all the UK under MGCC.

But why run a Nat b meeting when I can run a clubman permit.... 15 clubs is enough to take care of the majority (think realistically 15 different clubs at one race meet is ample ) and a clubman permit is far far cheaper than a Nat b . And seeing as you can have NEAFC on clubman there really is little point unless you want to run a guest championship and in truth, they have already paid their registration to their club so won't be bothered I fear

Could do what we do... Make ya membership automatic with the entry (I sound like a broken down record )

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by chunder

b) not having to take an ARDS test

f) no prize money

I don't know if I would want to enter a race with people that might have just passed a road driving test a couple of days before and had never been on a track !
As for prize money I've won more races than you've had hot dinners and apart from racing on the ovals 40 odd years ago I've never won a penny

[Al Weyman]

You should have raced in my old ModProd championship Gordon a few years back, we had good prize money thanks to our sponsors Falken and the fact I insisted it was given as prize and start money to the drivers instead of pocketing it.

[GORDON STREETER]

I suppose I have been very lucky over the years as I have had most of my racing entries paid for by other people, not because I was the "bees knees" but by knowing the right people in the right places, otherwise there is no way that I could have done it and lived a "normal" life.
However saying that we never went in for one of the big drains on money "kids" that seem to keep you poor until your dying day if you only get a mediocre wage like me

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

JT, I think that everyone understands the financial implications that exist for FISCAR if they don't charge a registration fee, but unfortunately this also applies to other race organisers, so that £40 can be multiplied many times over for a driver/entrant.

I don't think that this is a new problem, either. I seem to recall that we complained to Redex back in the sixties because the championship ran during meetings organised by various clubs, so we were having to pay for memberships as well as entry fees for virtually every race for the Redex Championship.

Those members entering a race that we have arranged with any organising club are not also required to be members of those organising clubs.

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

But someone parting with 40 quid John, is no guarantee that they are going to turn up for a race....actually quite the reverse I would have thought.

Not the point I was trying to make though Claire. I was merely responding to another post to point out that as an organiser we needed to make a small charge to cover costs/overheads. I agree entirely that it would not be enough to ensure commitment from members to enter races.

[Middle_BBG]

I don't think this related to just Historic racing, but motor sport in general in the UK. Every year there seem to be more and more championships springing up, with minimal entries, most of which die a death after a couple of seasons.

I would like to see any race series from any organising club at any circuit accepting guest entries if they have a suitable car. The car doesn't have to be necessarily eligible to be able to race within the championship, but would race in a separate class. The Kumho BMW championship, with its power to weight ratio class divide, seems eminently sensible to me, and always allows for close racing throughout the grid, so why can't other championships adapt a similar way of thinking ?

With grid sizes shrinking, and costs rising, it's time the organising clubs got together, amalgamated what can be, became ruthless with ailing series & championships, encouraged outside entries and tried to put on a show for the rapidly dwindling paying public, before circuit racing fails. Thruxton, my home circuit, is down to 4 race meetings this year; I'm fortunate in having Gurston Down, Brooklands & Goodwood within a similar distance, and we'll still do 2 or 3 away days to meetings we want to marshal at, but it saddens me to see small grids & even smaller crowds at the sport I love.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Derwent Motorsp]

The MSA does have a championship control board but they are limited by EU Freedom to Trade regulations. If a club, or more likely a commercial body, wishes to by track time or a grid, then the MSA can't stop them. If ten drivers are happy to pay the cost/10 then it's up to them. Thus we've had some poorly supported races, sometimes quite long, like the ones for the modern Aston Martins.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Middle_BBG

I don't think this related to just Historic racing, but motor sport in general in the UK. Every year there seem to be more and more championships springing up, with minimal entries, most of which die a death after a couple of seasons.

I would like to see any race series from any organising club at any circuit accepting guest entries if they have a suitable car. The car doesn't have to be necessarily eligible to be able to race within the championship, but would race in a separate class. The Kumho BMW championship, with its power to weight ratio class divide, seems eminently sensible to me, and always allows for close racing throughout the grid, so why can't other championships adapt a similar way of thinking ?

With grid sizes shrinking, and costs rising, it's time the organising clubs got together, amalgamated what can be, became ruthless with ailing series & championships, encouraged outside entries and tried to put on a show for the rapidly dwindling paying public, before circuit racing fails. Thruxton, my home circuit, is down to 4 race meetings this year; I'm fortunate in having Gurston Down, Brooklands & Goodwood within a similar distance, and we'll still do 2 or 3 away days to meetings we want to marshal at, but it saddens me to see small grids & even smaller crowds at the sport I love.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

There is the 750 club meeting at Donington this weekend, there were three races today each with eleven to thirteen cars in. Two or even three of these races could be amalgamated but I know for a fact that due to snobbery within each series they wont join up. Admitted two of the series have complimentary entries from each other but one will only allow certain mark cars (MGBs), they could have bigger grids if they allowed other cars from the other races to enter but that still leaves two races under subscribed because they wont be flexible.
On the flip side if instead of 11 cars they had 30 cars in each race I doubt the 750 club would reduce the entry fee or reimburse anyone so either way you wont win.

[Al Weyman]

The BARC/CTCRC have done that this weekend at Silverstone resulting in some nice size grids if somewhat strange combination of cars for example Pre 2005 near standard cars with Pre 66s but if its either that or go under then the amagamation has to be accepted.