Why Can't The Clubs work together?

[midgetman]

Um, may I respectfully play Devil's Advocate?

There's often a second side. There are only 8 bank holidays in the UK, three are in the winter and two are on the same weekend. So you're the HSCC and along comes this newcomer trumpeting club values and is suddenly stamping on one of the Bank Holidays when you plan to have a Festival. Like I said, only playing DA, no criticism intended but there's bound to be congestion.

Pre-race entry lists - I've been swayed by the argument. Why do I normally print them out in advance? Cos it's cheaper than a programme. Do I need to know as a competitor who I am racing against? Dunno, not sure I do. If I'm doing a Championship I will know already who is registered. If not, who cares!

Too many race series? TBQH if the MSA were as ruthless as we all profess to want them to be, then the 360 would have been refused a permit. The Market will sort it out, there will be some high profile casualties and sooner rather than later. Hopefully the 360 won't be one of them but no one has a right to stay in business so they need our support as much as possible.

Does motor racing need to change? You betcha, from top to bottom, an argument I have rehearsed on many threads elsewhere!

Vested interest? Yup, we've all got them whether it be to make money, establish a race meeting or keeping our favourite series going.

Like I said, just putting another POV. BTW Nick hit the nail on the head from the competitor's side.

[Al Weyman]

There is always some issue or other regarding the mechanical aspect when racing old cars. look at me, I do the trackday last Friday primarily to check out the rebuilt engine and run it in and the gearbox which was perfect plays up, now if i had a meeting the following weekend I would have to cancel which is why I also will not enter till I am sure the car is fit.

Maybe one solution would be to have a rollover facility actually written into the entry regs and not rely on the good nature of someone you may phone up at the organising club and sweet talk to. I am thinking prehaps you maybe enter but can cancel and rollover to the next meeting without penalty up until the day the race insurance has to be paid (Wednesday before meeting?) after that date you forfiet the insurance fee but your entry is still rolled on less the fee which you would be required to pay. At least this way the clubs would get a bit of extra money in to help there cash flow. I do know a lot of sensible clubs will unofficially do this but I think it needs to be written into the regs for all to see so everyone knows this it the proceedure and the facility is available to every member not just those 'in the know'.
.

BTW the clubs would then probably have a more healthy entry list on paper and maybe would find the confidence to release these as 'provisional'.

[gary396]

Remember, this debate started on the Masters thread when I asked about entry lists for the coming weekend's event at Oulton Park. Guess what? Three days away and still no such list on their site. Whatever one says about the difficulties for entrants, organisers and circuits that's just not on.

Spectators are encouraged (by both Masters and MSV) to attend with lots of teasers about entrants but at the end of the day it's a leap of faith it will be a good entry (accepting the relevant caveats about last minute drop outs from any provisional list). So two of us going will cost £32 for tickets, 300-mile round trip plus food / drinks, makes it a relatively expensive day out on the 'hope' of a good entry.

Or don't spectators count?

[johngee]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Um, may I respectfully play Devil's Advocate?

There's often a second side. There are only 8 bank holidays in the UK, three are in the winter and two are on the same weekend. So you're the HSCC and along comes this newcomer trumpeting club values and is suddenly stamping on one of the Bank Holidays when you plan to have a Festival. Like I said, only playing DA, no criticism intended but there's bound to be congestion.

Pre-race entry lists - I've been swayed by the argument. Why do I normally print them out in advance? Cos it's cheaper than a programme. Do I need to know as a competitor who I am racing against? Dunno, not sure I do. If I'm doing a Championship I will know already who is registered. If not, who cares!

Too many race series? TBQH if the MSA were as ruthless as we all profess to want them to be, then the 360 would have been refused a permit. The Market will sort it out, there will be some high profile casualties and sooner rather than later. Hopefully the 360 won't be one of them but no one has a right to stay in business so they need our support as much as possible.

Does motor racing need to change? You betcha, from top to bottom, an argument I have rehearsed on many threads elsewhere!

Vested interest? Yup, we've all got them whether it be to make money, establish a race meeting or keeping our favourite series going.

Like I said, just putting another POV. BTW Nick hit the nail on the head from the competitor's side.

Just a small rebuttal for the sake of accuracy.
1. We (as 360) don't have any issues with the HSCC or their meeting that clashes with ours. It was organised by a commercial operator and the circuit owner and the HSCC were simply contracted as the permit holding club (AFAIK)
2. I agree that there are too many championships/series but, being very personal, I don't think that would justify refusing a smaller club like 360MRC a permit. We're not a series/championship but a one off race and as Claire once pointed out, we're not taking away anything from the historic motorsport scene ....... no other organisation was interested in doing it.
3. Other than that, I agree with you (and the governing body should take a lead and 'govern') and I know your 'devils advocacy' was well intentioned (I already know you too well ) and not personally directed at 360.

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>and not personally directed at 360

Absolutely. Totally. 100%. In fact, 1000%. I just want to make that clear if I didn't in my original post. Just used the 360 as an e.g. from our collective experience that is relevant and I didn't mean to infer you had a problem with HSCC AT ALL. It took me ages to write that post with the minimum of offence but the maximum of thought provoked.

My point about the permit was again not pointed at the 360, but more at us as drivers saying "the MSA should crack down on the number of race meetings - oh, except the one I want to race at of course!" I believe the MSA isn't far out in giving people just enough rope, perhaps should be a bit harder in insisting on amalgamations but that's about it.

Regarding the entry lists for spectators...Gary, pre-internet you'd never have known who was competing anyway, and I'm sure the entrance fee was just as much of your disposable income as it is today. We're spoilt these days

>>>>>Don't spectators count?

Don't start me on that! "YES" if you subsidise my racing. "Not worried" if my entry fees subsidise your day out

[gary396]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>>
Regarding the entry lists for spectators...Gary, pre-internet you'd never have known who was competing anyway, and I'm sure the entrance fee was just as much of your disposable income as it is today. We're spoilt these days

>>>>>Don't spectators count?

Don't start me on that! "YES" if you subsidise my racing. "Not worried" if my entry fees subsidise your day out

But the point is that the internet does exist and clubs etc are all very keen to push their events via such media and even ask people to pay online but then can't (in some cases) be bothered to publish a list.

The subsidy issue is a bit of a 'red herring'. If someone is paying for a service then surely the service providers should at least 'go the extra mile'. Are we supposed to accept basic gaps in service provision just because it's always been like that?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Maybe one solution would be to have a rollover facility actually written into the entry regs and not rely on the good nature of someone you may phone up at the organising club and sweet talk to. I am thinking prehaps you maybe enter but can cancel and rollover to the next meeting without penalty up until the day the race insurance has to be paid (Wednesday before meeting?) after that date you forfiet the insurance fee but your entry is still rolled on less the fee which you would be required to pay. At least this way the clubs would get a bit of extra money in to help there cash flow. I do know a lot of sensible clubs will unofficially do this but I think it needs to be written into the regs for all to see so everyone knows this it the proceedure and the facility is available to every member not just those 'in the know'.
.

BTW the clubs would then probably have a more healthy entry list on paper and maybe would find the confidence to release these as 'provisional'.

That works for a big series promotor who can bank roll Al, but alas, would not work for the likes of the smaller (like 360) club because regardless of the insurance etc, I still have a contract with the race circuit, I also on the wednesday before have a contract with the timekeepers, the scrutineers, the rescue vehicle supplier, the recovery contractor, The commentator etc etc. You dont show, I get your money, but its spent Al, its gone on this years event. If I have a full grid then yes I could bank roll you and let the money stay for next year, providing I have enough to cover this year

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by gary396

But the point is that the internet does exist and clubs etc are all very keen to push their events via such media and even ask people to pay online but then can't (in some cases) be bothered to publish a list.

The subsidy issue is a bit of a 'red herring'. If someone is paying for a service then surely the service providers should at least 'go the extra mile'. Are we supposed to accept basic gaps in service provision just because it's always been like that?

OK, accept both your points, you're winning me round. It was me that said earlier "motor racing must change" and now it's me harping back to the "old days"!

Combe does it well. If grids are high, spectators are excited, and there's a bonus paid to the drivers. Win/win. But my soapbox is: Why does motor racing exist? Is it to entertain the driver or the spectator? [And as a side issue, are we BOTH being taken as mugs?]

And of course there are only a finite number of both, so major clashes need to be avoided for everyone's benefit [desperately dragging back on topic]

[andy97]

It's all very well for the cry to be for the clubs to work together (& I'm in favour of the principle) but it's actually the circuits that hold the power - they clearly have the facilities, they set whatever hire charges they want & they have the dates. It's up to them who they contract with & if track days or motor cycle meetings or the "horse of the year show" are more profitable for them then that's what they will run.

Of course, if you are MSVR or BARC or even Castle Combe Racing Club then you have the circuit & you can provide your own content & you have a major advantage. For those clubs that don't have their own circuits then they will have to accept the scraps.

A real world example - twice in the last few years a well known club has had a contract with a well known circuit for a full weekend meeting. On one occasion a company (not a race club) came along & said to the circuit that they wanted to hire it for some international adventure sports festival - the club was bumped, presumably because they paid more. On the second occassion another club came along & wanted that date & the first club got bumped (not sure why but presumably a similar reason). On both occasions the word "contract" was used in the discussions about this, & on both ocassions the club was told "tough".

What leverage does the club have? None. If Bernie decides that the British GP will or will not happen, or that it's going to be shifted to May then the WHOLE of club motorsport has to re-write its calendars & negotiate to avoid new clashes.

As for clubs going bust, I do think it will happen in the future & remeber that clubs that used to organise race meetings like SUNBAC & the 8 Clubs stopped a while ago.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by gary396

But the point is that the internet does exist and clubs etc are all very keen to push their events via such media and even ask people to pay online but then can't (in some cases) be bothered to publish a list.

The subsidy issue is a bit of a 'red herring'. If someone is paying for a service then surely the service providers should at least 'go the extra mile'. Are we supposed to accept basic gaps in service provision just because it's always been like that?

Your service provider is not the organising club Gary, in this case Masters, you have that wrong, your service provider is the circuit.

The fact is Gary (and you may not like me for saying this but I will always tell the truth) you as a spectator are not part of my equation with regard to the COMMERCIALS of my event. The fact that you are there or are not there makes very little difference to me financially in respect of throughput of cash (with the exception that, you may buy a programme) Now before you reach for your keyboard, let me explain what I mean and I am being specific to my event here but am sure that others operate the same
I as an organiser do not get anything for you being there, The gate goes to the circuit, the money for the burger goes to that vender, the ice cream money goes to the Ice Cream vendor.

Now, before the circuit owners never speak to me again, let me just say that we (that is 360) have done a great deal to make this years 360 very much an entertaining event for the spectator, I have personally begged, Borrowed (but not stole) pleaded and cried to whoever I could to bring "side shows" to the 360, relevant mind, I have not got those cages on elastic that throw you into the air, nor some paintball laser gun game and not a fairground ride in sight. If you want fairground rides, go to Alton Towers. No, what we have got is the GULF world record attempt that will be great for the spectators (even better if they have a gulf car) we have FORC coming with 60 odd classic cars and racers, some of which will do demonstrations, we have iconic world record holding cars and cars that need no introductions that will be in the paddock, with their owners that you will be able to talk to and they will tell you stories about the cars etc. radio Le Mans and John Hindhaugh will be interviewing the people behind the scenes in Race Control, the faithful thankless dreamteam that make sure that everyone including the spectator enjoys a great and SAFE event. Why, why have we gone to that trouble when there isnt anything in it commercially for us?, well, thats mainly because we believe in making it an event, I persoanlly want it to be a great "Show" because, its not just about the 6 hours and the support race,, its about Motorsport and anything petrol and I go out of my way to try and make it that (Its why my race Director wont allow me to enter the 6 hour, because, its what I do) we dont just want to run a six hour race, we want to run an EVENT so that you the spectator come away happy as well as the people takin part in the races, I will refer to them by their proper name in my book, OUR CUSTOMERS, because Gary, they are, without them, you would not have the choice to go or not to go, you would not have anything to go to. They pay for the priviledge of it and when we are organising an event, its THEM that we are trying to please the most.
That wasnt an advert (tthough some may see it as such) it was a way of explaining what goes into it We (360) are different because we were not in this for profit and if it could have been done as a co op, then it would have been, but its not like that now, its a business, but, Im proud to say still with the original values
Presteage events such as Le Mans and the likes, yes, they will always be ok, but for the sort of meeting we are refering to, I am sorry but that is the truth and anyone who says different is either not telling the truth or is called Bernie

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

It's all very well for the cry to be for the clubs to work together (& I'm in favour of the principle) but it's actually the circuits that hold the power - they clearly have the facilities, they set whatever hire charges they want & they have the dates. It's up to them who they contract with & if track days or motor cycle meetings or the "horse of the year show" are more profitable for them then that's what they will run.

Of course, if you are MSVR or BARC or even Castle Combe Racing Club then you have the circuit & you can provide your own content & you have a major advantage. For those clubs that don't have their own circuits then they will have to accept the scraps.

A real world example - twice in the last few years a well known club has had a contract with a well known circuit for a full weekend meeting. On one occasion a company (not a race club) came along & said to the circuit that they wanted to hire it for some international adventure sports festival - the club was bumped, presumably because they paid more. On the second occassion another club came along & wanted that date & the first club got bumped (not sure why but presumably a similar reason). On both occasions the word "contract" was used in the discussions about this, & on both ocassions the club was told "tough".

What leverage does the club have? None. If Bernie decides that the British GP will or will not happen, or that it's going to be shifted to May then the WHOLE of club motorsport has to re-write its calendars & negotiate to avoid new clashes.

As for clubs going bust, I do think it will happen in the future & remeber that clubs that used to organise race meetings like SUNBAC & the 8 Clubs stopped a while ago.

SPOT ON

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

That works for a big series promotor who can bank roll Al, but alas, would not work for the likes of the smaller (like 360) club because regardless of the insurance etc, I still have a contract with the race circuit, I also on the wednesday before have a contract with the timekeepers, the scrutineers, the rescue vehicle supplier, the recovery contractor, The commentator etc etc. You dont show, I get your money, but its spent Al, its gone on this years event. If I have a full grid then yes I could bank roll you and let the money stay for next year, providing I have enough to cover this year

I wasnt refering to one off or annual events but championships and series, one offs like 360 it obviously wouldnt work.

[Lancsbreaker]

Fully support your initial concept, Claire, that organisers need to talk to each other in everyone's interest (even those peculiar spectators who pay to watch us play ).

As I said to you at Race Retro, years gone by when road rallies were popular, there were frequent problems of event and route clashes....MSA would eventually prevent them happening as there was a six-week (between use of any one stretch of road) rule - but that meant a lot of wasted effort for all concerned. In the North, at least, the Regional Association (ANCC) convened a "dates" meeting each year before which proposed dates and outline routes (generally OS maps used) had to be put forward, so potential clashes could be identified, and effectively everyone was "locked in" in the meeting until any issues were resolved. There were ground rules eg protecting "historic" dates/events (ie dates/events that have regularly run successfully on specific dates/maps), and generally the system worked well. Clubs could of course still put forward events outside of the agreed list, but would not receive any support from ANCC or inclusion in any series, etc.

I don't underestimate the difficulty of doing this on a national scale, but within for example the "Historic" event organisers it must be worth a try....

I wish you well with your efforts.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Fully support your initial concept, Claire, that organisers need to talk to each other in everyone's interest (even those peculiar spectators who pay to watch us play ).

As I said to you at Race Retro, years gone by when road rallies were popular, there were frequent problems of event and route clashes....MSA would eventually prevent them happening as there was a six-week (between use of any one stretch of road) rule - but that meant a lot of wasted effort for all concerned. In the North, at least, the Regional Association (ANCC) convened a "dates" meeting each year before which proposed dates and outline routes (generally OS maps used) had to be put forward, so potential clashes could be identified, and effectively everyone was "locked in" in the meeting until any issues were resolved. There were ground rules eg protecting "historic" dates/events (ie dates/events that have regularly run successfully on specific dates/maps), and generally the system worked well. Clubs could of course still put forward events outside of the agreed list, but would not receive any support from ANCC or inclusion in any series, etc.

I don't underestimate the difficulty of doing this on a national scale, but within for example the "Historic" event organisers it must be worth a try....

I wish you well with your efforts.

Ta

I will wait til after 360, then sit down with a thinking cap on and see what I can suggest. I have a venue already in mind and ideed available to us.

If it is a no go then I will, as I said, tell you all as such BUT as I said, it will not be a name an shame because thats not productive and rather unprofessional, a bit like Radio Le Mans, I want to provide "the table" for people to sit round and teh forum to discuss, the rest is up to us all as participants in this great sport of ours

[gary396]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Your service provider is not the organising club Gary, in this case Masters, you have that wrong, your service provider is the circuit.

Claire, I quite understand that point - I thought I said in an earlier post something about (in this particular case) Masters and/or MSV, i.e. fully aware it's not just the organising club but is largely down to the circuit (i.e. from a spectators point of view).

Having said that, where an organiser is actively promoting an event and encouraging people to go along and watch (even if they the organisers don't profit from that), then I would suggest that they still bear some of the responsibility for providing such a service. Don't think it's right for them to say that's nothing to do with us (and I'm not suggesting that you are).

For example, I e-mailed Masters this morning to get a list but instead got the following reply: "Thank you for your email. I’m afraid we won’t be publishing out entry lists until tomorrow afternoon or Friday morning, but they will appear online."

Not surprising that MSV can't publish them on their site then is it?

As said, quite understand your 'organisers' point. My issue is more about the 'motorsport industry' collectively - in terms of considering the interests of spectators.

P.s. Disappointed to note that you won't be having paint-balling at the 360 event. Surely this should be a basic spectator facility!

[andy97]

Originally Posted by gary396

P.s. Disappointed to note that you won't be having paint-balling at the 360 event. Surely this should be a basic spectator facility![/FONT] [/FONT]

Hmm, you may hit on something there; but who would be the "targets"???

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

Hmm, you may hit on something there; but who would be the "targets"???

Too many one liners to reply with!!!

[Peter Scillitoe]

Originally Posted by andy97

If Bernie decides that the British GP will or will not happen, or that it's going to be shifted to May then the WHOLE of club motorsport has to re-write its calendars & negotiate to avoid new clashes.

Why? I am not aware of any law that says other motorsport events cannot happen on BGP weekend. I don't believe that the BGP has very much relevance to the rest of British motorsport these days. And, certainly not with historics. The people who attend the BGP are, in the main, free loaders/corporates and 'spectators' who never go near a motorsport event the rest of the year. I have been to events which clashed with the BGP, a couple of years ago the VSCC Cadwell Park meetings was such a case. So, two fingers to the Bernie circus.

[andy97]

Peter, its simple. If Bernie decides that the BGP will be in May, lets say 1 May2011 as an eg, then the event that was scheduled for that day will want to find somewhere else to go & so it goes on. If that 1 may event was British Supebikes (it probably isn't but i'm exagerrating for effect) then that will move to, say, Snetterton because its an important domestic Chamnpionship & so its likely that MSV will accomodate it. BS is probably a 2 or 3 day neeting so the 360 moves etc etc etc.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Peter Scillitoe

Why? I am not aware of any law that says other motorsport events cannot happen on BGP weekend. I don't believe that the BGP has very much relevance to the rest of British motorsport these days. And, certainly not with historics. The people who attend the BGP are, in the main, free loaders/corporates and 'spectators' who never go near a motorsport event the rest of the year. I have been to events which clashed with the BGP, a couple of years ago the VSCC Cadwell Park meetings was such a case. So, two fingers to the Bernie circus.

I was tempted to post pretty much the same thing Peter - thought better of it and would be shot at for being a grumpy old man but I'm with you and as I commented on the postponement of the Bahrain GP - 'who cares!'

[andy97]

Originally Posted by johngee

would be shot at for being a grumpy old man

We have a volunteer for the paintballing targets!!!!!!!!!!!!

[johngee]

Cheers Andy - left myself well 'on target' for that!

[TorqueWench]

My two pennorth for what it's worth - the dates are set by discussions between circuit owners and clubs - and clubs will usually try and repeat last year's date to keep it simple - even if it's not a Gold Cup (always Aug Bank Hol) etc.

Spectators make no difference financially to Club meetings - bar programme sales as Claire said - the club doesn't get the gate revenue and the circuit won't promote clubby meetings because they save up the local population until they have something big like BTCC or Superbikes. Spectators are nice to have however.

I personally also do not feel Clubs should publish entry lists ahead of time, as the local car thieves or house burglars will find out when you are going to be away!

Claire - I wish you every success with the 6 hours - I know exactly how difficult it is to set up your own races and risk your own money and I admire you for it

[zefarelly]

Why Can't The Clubs work together?

a good few do . . . and some don't want to.

is that too simple an answer?

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

Claire - I wish you every success with the 6 hours - I know exactly how difficult it is to set up your own races and risk your own money and I admire you for it

Hear hear, and all the other workers.