Why Can't The Clubs work together? - Page 3

THISTLE · 9 Mar 2011, 17:37 (Ref:2842842)

I'm a serial lurker. But I'm always educated and sometimes amused by the contributions and contributors to this site.
Momentarily, the lurking is over. This entry list debate is dear to my heart.
I live in Edinburgh, been a motorsport enthusiast and (long time ago) rally competitor for yonks.
I consider Oulton Park to be my 'local' circuit for big-ish-time historic racing and we have attended the Gold Cup every year since it restarted in its current format.
We were considering motoring down the M6 for the Masters meeting but, as I've seen before with Masters when trying to find out whether a car which I used to own was going to be featuring, generally no advance entry lists are published. Therefore, this early in the season with the risk of poor weather (it was snowing here this morning) and with the likelihood of early season sparseness about the entries, we won't be making the trip. Had we been able to see the scale of the entertainement on offer then we would have chosen to make the trip.
I take the point about competitors and clubs not receiving anything from the gate takings (for clubs and competitors the lowly spectator doesn't enter the equation, seemingly) but without circuits there won't be anywhere for the racers to play and to entertain us.
Hence, the fact that we, and probably many more, won't be going along to the Oulton Park Masters meeting means that the circuit is denied our entry fee and any commercial service providers at the circuit will be denied whatever we were going to spend on the day.
The logical endpoint for such a scenario is that circuits will sooner or later decline to associate themselves with what they might consider loss-making historics (the only category which interests me) - and we would all be the poorer for that.
Apologies for the intervention --- just the view from the cheap seats --- and now I will return to lurking.

Derek Douglas

MartinSmith · 9 Mar 2011, 18:27 (Ref:2842874)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

......We were considering motoring down the M6 for the Masters meeting but, as I've seen before with Masters when trying to find out whether a car which I used to own was going to be featuring, generally no advance entry lists are published. Therefore, this early in the season with the risk of poor weather (it was snowing here this morning) and with the likelihood of early season sparseness about the entries, we won't be making the trip. Had we been able to see the scale of the entertainement on offer then we would have chosen to make the trip.
.........

Or...not chosen to make the trip? Sorry to point out the obvious Derek, but had it not been up to your taste you would not have made the trip would you? the point being, that if you had seen that there were only say a few cars (or even twelve rings a bell) you would have maybe thought "nah I wont bother" the trouble is, you may think that and so may a potential customer and that then spirrals.

Say for example you are a competitor and you are planning to enter a race and then you hear through a "reliable source" that the meeting is so sparce that its been sold as a track day, would you enter?, if you had only paid a deposit on the entry, would you pay the rest, would you bother to go or would you back out, find an excuse and cut your loses.As was pointed out to me at Race Retro "I loved doing your race, but I was dissapointed that there was only eight cars, I dont want to be dissapointed again" I will tell you what I told him, he can bring his car and if there is only eight cars there or less, then I will let him drive round all day for nothing and at the end of the day will give him the entrance fee that he hasnt paid, but, if there are more than eight, he has to give me the entrance fee.

Think this may be really two issues. This actual thread was because I reacted to Gary's post about issuing entry lists and actually went on about organisers talking to each other and about the calendar. so I will get back to that.

Regardless of if we like it or not, Bernie does have an effect on our meeting dates. because the world WAITS for that date before any of the circuits will commit because if he does want to move it, as Andy has pointed out, someone else will have to move and so on (We actually had a Mid May date for the 360 at first this year, but it was moved)

In respect of entries, several have said on here that they wont pay until the last minute, that is their choice, but until they DO, they are not an entry, they are a promise, a "yes I am deffo in" a " im just waiting on my co driver" "ive just got to sort out that problem" that wont py the circuit hire and all the promise in the world is not an entry. I had 23 promised last year nuff said, been there done that.

We will post the entries in the programme, we will make them known on the day, our regs even state that and we told everyone about the reason from the beginning of this year, our reason is simple this time, we are building the sub groups around what is in, to be fairer to everyone, it adds to the excitment, you dont know what you're up against and so (as several preparers have said to me) it makes it great because the owners have a budget and they build to the best that budget will get them rather than knowing you are in a class that your car is bound to win at (or lose). adds a bit of spice, mystery etc etc.

MartinSmith · 9 Mar 2011, 18:29 (Ref:2842878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Why Can't The Clubs work together?

a good few do . . . and some don't want to.

is that too simple an answer?

Hopefully I will find out when we sort a meeting

MGDavid · 9 Mar 2011, 18:47 (Ref:2842895)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

........As was pointed out to me at Race Retro "I loved doing your race, but I was dissapointed that there was only eight cars, I dont want to be dissapointed again" ............

I like to think whomever said that has done their bit to actively promote, cajole, persuade, sing praises from the rooftops etc to all and sundry, in order to keep the movement going and get a bigger entry this year - I know I have. And if there were to be only 8 this year, I've already said it would only be to the detriment of all those that aren't there - I will enjoy myself just as much.

sorry - OT again ! back on track -
when Claire's 24 hour is on a different date than the 2CV 24hr then I'll know the clubs are working together :-)

THISTLE · 9 Mar 2011, 19:08 (Ref:2842913)

"Or...not chosen to make the trip? Sorry to point out the obvious Derek, but had it not been up to your taste you would not have made the trip would you? the point being, that if you had seen that there were only say a few cars (or even twelve rings a bell) you would have maybe thought "nah I wont bother" the trouble is, you may think that and so may a potential customer and that then spirrals . . . "
+++++++++

. . . And if we make the trip 'blind' and it turns out that there are skeleton grids then we're equally cheesed off and maybe we'll think 'sod that for a game of sojers in future'. It's a self-perpetuating sprial of decline.

I take your point entirely about the spectator not entering the equation so far as race organisers are concerned. Indeed when we have been to serious historic meetings like the Gold Cup and Goodwood I've often had a think about the large amount of money which it costs the competitors to compete and that none of the comparatively large amounts of money which it costs the specator to spectate (see Goodwood) goes towards their costs.

The question is ... is historic motor racing a spectator sport or not? If the answer is yes then the spectator's requirements must be catered for and that means providing advance information about 'the show'. If the answer is 'no' then I wonder what the view of the owners of the circuits would be about that and what impact that would have on their businesses.

In all honesty I don't see an easy answer to this but, so far as the non -publication of entry lists is concerned I do think that in this information age, when whether we like it or not, information of all kinds is available at the click of a mouse, that it is head-in-the-sand stuff to deny a race meeting line-up to the paying spectator in advance - and also just a tad arrogant (and I don't mean you). But then, as you said previously, the spectator doesn't enter your equation.

I'll just be getting my coat . . .

andy97 · 9 Mar 2011, 19:43 (Ref:2842936)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

The question is ... is historic motor racing a spectator sport or not? If the answer is yes then the spectator's requirements must be catered for and that means providing advance information about 'the show'. If the answer is 'no' then I wonder what the view of the owners of the circuits would be about that and what impact that would have on their businesses.

I'll just be getting my coat . . .

Don't get your coat - your contribution is important.

To answer your question, though it is my view that some historic events are clearly put on with the spectator in mind; Silverstone Classic, Oulton Gold Cup, Donington Classic etc & they are promoted as such & spectator income is a fundamental part of the business equation. However, many "classic" or "historic" meetings are not. They are for the competitor; the circuit owner is actually happy with this as he gets his money purely from the circuit hire fees. If the circuit owner wasn't happy with this arrangement they would have contracts in place that required a certain level of promotion & might consider some element of shared risk - they do not.

Chris Sharples · 9 Mar 2011, 20:01 (Ref:2842947)

Sarah spelt it out quite clearly. There are very few historic meetings that generate substantial revenue from the gate. The notable exceptions are Goodwood, Silverstone Classic and the Gold Cup.
This means a club like the HSCC focusses on providing its members and occasional invited series with enjoyable racing on good circuits with entry fees kept as low as possible. We neither get the benefit of takings on the gate nor face the risk if takings are low. We are happy with this because we can just concentrate on what we are good at.
However this doesn't mean that we don't care about spectators and marshals. We think that both these groups are just as enthusiastic as us. The only difference being they don't own race cars.
Its not a lot of hassle to put entry lists up on a website and if we do so, and it persuades people to come along to have a look and a chat, then isn't that a good thing.
Chris

delta · 9 Mar 2011, 21:30 (Ref:2843000)

Chris why are you not watching your football team

TorqueWench · 9 Mar 2011, 22:46 (Ref:2843060)

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy97

Don't get your coat - your contribution is important.

To answer your question, though it is my view that some historic events are clearly put on with the spectator in mind; Silverstone Classic, Oulton Gold Cup, Donington Classic etc & they are promoted as such & spectator income is a fundamental part of the business equation. However, many "classic" or "historic" meetings are not. They are for the competitor; the circuit owner is actually happy with this as he gets his money purely from the circuit hire fees. If the circuit owner wasn't happy with this arrangement they would have contracts in place that required a certain level of promotion & might consider some element of shared risk - they do not.

Exactly right. I'm sorry, you enthusiasts - whether racers, marshals or spectators, but the bottom line is the arbiter. So long as we racers are prepared to pay to race, and the blessed marshals are prepared to marshal (rescue, firefight etc) motorsport will continue for the circuit owners. Once that dries up they will find any way to use their real estate - and who would blame them ... lets hope we can all keep paying to race.

**John Turner** · 10 Mar 2011, 09:14 (Ref:2843235)

I'd just like to say that I'm an enthusiastic spectator!

MartinSmith · 10 Mar 2011, 09:23 (Ref:2843242)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

Exactly right. I'm sorry, you enthusiasts - whether racers, marshals or spectators, but the bottom line is the arbiter. So long as we racers are prepared to pay to race, and the blessed marshals are prepared to marshal (rescue, firefight etc) motorsport will continue for the circuit owners. Once that dries up they will find any way to use their real estate - and who would blame them ... lets hope we can all keep paying to race.

Seems I have three organisers (one being me) who agree on something here and Im glad that we are "telling it like it is"

I shall put you and Mr Sharples down for the invite to the conference

THISTLE · 10 Mar 2011, 09:32 (Ref:2843248)

Check this out ..... http://www.themastersseries.com/news.html ..... a 'scribble' of press releases many of which relate to this weekend's Masters meeting at Oulton Park.

So, clearly, and despite the claims made in some earlier posts, this Masters meeting is surely intended to be one for all-comers - competitors, marshals, spectators, the man/woman in the burger van - and not a closed-to-club, behind closed doors affair. Otherwise, why mount a PR operation.

We'll just watch it on Motors TV (see press release on Masters website) --- indeed, not a spectator event at all.

That's it from me. I've said my piece. My man has just come in to say that the Haggis are out in force (something to do with the weather) so we're away to the hills for some sport.

Derek

johngee · 10 Mar 2011, 09:34 (Ref:2843251)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Sharples

There are very few historic meetings that generate substantial revenue from the gate. The notable exceptions are Goodwood, Silverstone Classic and the Gold Cup.

The trouble is Chris, from the discussions on here and elsewhere, I think that there's a perception that it's the organising/permit holding club that makes the big bucks out of the promoted type meetings such as those you've quoted.

johngee · 10 Mar 2011, 09:44 (Ref:2843263)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

We'll just watch it on Motors TV (see press release on Masters website) --- indeed, not a spectator event at all.

Derek

I fear that you may be disappointed Derek.
The Motors TV coverage is not focussed on the racing itself but more aligned to the GT Racer series that was shown a couple of years ago, which went behind the scenes and with interviews of drivers and a closer look at the cars etc.
Away to the hills and shoot your haggis but I'm sure that won't be as good as Oulton Park.

MartinSmith · 10 Mar 2011, 09:44 (Ref:2843264)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

Check this out ..... So, clearly, and despite the claims made in some earlier posts, this Masters meeting is surely intended to be one for all-comers - competitors, marshals, spectators, the man/woman in the burger van - and not a closed-to-club, behind closed doors affair. Otherwise, why mount a PR operation.

Sorry, when did anyone say it was a clubman meeting?...and "behind closed doors"

dont think anyone said that Derek, best to read the posts rather than assume me thinks .....

THISTLE · 10 Mar 2011, 09:53 (Ref:2843273)

John ... Ye dinnae shoot haggis laddie! Ye entrap them wi' guile and sweet words.

(And if the actual racing isn't going to be on Motors TV then the Masters Series press release is misleading.)

Claire ... No need to apologise.

Derek

johngee · 10 Mar 2011, 09:54 (Ref:2843275)

I've just spoken to Masters, who are running a test day at Donington today. There's a number of drivers/cars who are waiting for the results of their testing before they enter for Oulton Park. Are we to say "too late" and deny them the opportunity of enjoying their racing and the public and marshals enjoying their cars?

MartinSmith · 10 Mar 2011, 09:58 (Ref:2843279)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

.......Claire ... No need to apologise.

Derek

But I do feel sorry for you.....thats why I did

johngee · 10 Mar 2011, 10:03 (Ref:2843284)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

John ... Ye dinnae shoot haggis laddie! Ye entrap them wi' guile and sweet words.

(And if the actual racing isn't going to be on Motors TV then the Masters Series press release is misleading.)

Derek

Derek. I don't believe the press release is misleading. What I'm trying to convey is that the coverage of the whole meeting will be more as a magazine format rather than an accurate race by race documentary.
.....and obviously my 'guile and sweet words' are not yet persuading you to drive to Oulton Park. I could throw in a tour of Race Control at lunch time?

**Peter Mallett** · 10 Mar 2011, 10:07 (Ref:2843285)

Quote:

Originally Posted by THISTLE

John ... Ye dinnae shoot haggis laddie! Ye entrap them wi' guile and sweet words.

Frankly you can shoot them or eat them. Trouble is if you do the latter you wish you'd done the former.

Dave Brand · 10 Mar 2011, 10:08 (Ref:2843286)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorqueWench

and the blessed marshals are prepared to marshal (rescue, firefight etc) motorsport will continue for the circuit owners.

Another area where date clashes cause problems! Marshals can only be in one place at once; in so many cases - Oulton/Anglesey, the circuits in the East Midlands - it's the same, or substantially the same, group of marshals.

andy97 · 10 Mar 2011, 10:08 (Ref:2843287)

Quote:

Originally Posted by johngee

I could throw in a tour of Race Control at lunch time?

Now, if you were a competitor & you were asked to visit Race Control at lunchtime you'd run a mile!!!!

gary396 · 10 Mar 2011, 10:17 (Ref:2843294)

Well I've decided to leave my 'grumpy head' at home, raid the piggy bank and make the trek across to watch Saturday's Masters (with or without entry list

). Weather forecast not brilliant but not too bad either so looking forward to it.

MartinSmith · 10 Mar 2011, 10:24 (Ref:2843297)

Quote:

Originally Posted by gary396

Well I've decided to leave my 'grumpy head' at home, raid the piggy bank and make the trek across to watch Saturday's Masters (with or without entry list

). Weather forecast not brilliant but not too bad either so looking forward to it.

Come see us in race control Gary, We'd be glad to say hello and show you around

THISTLE · 10 Mar 2011, 10:25 (Ref:2843298)

http://http://www.hscc.org.uk/resources/Provis ... 202011.pdf
www.hscc.org.uk/resources/Provis ... 202011.pdf

Re HSCC link above. Enough said really.

Peter .... Deep-fried haggis as a 'main' followed by deep-fried Mars bar for pudding. All washed down with lashings of Irn Bru. You know you would like it!

Derek

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