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Old 3 Feb 2015, 10:35 (Ref:3500393)   #1
Derwent Motorsp
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Seat Belt Lifing

I've been delving into the Blue Book to confirm the "life" of my seat belts but I can't find any reference any where. My belts state 12 GEN 2012 on the label. When do they run out?
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 10:47 (Ref:3500399)   #2
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Not 100% sure they do run out for circuit racing (club level at least) - I know we have to change seats and belts in our rally car every 5 years now and there was a lot of complaining (and rightly so) as the same seat and belts that are deemed unsafe for rallying are still perfectly acceptable for circuit racing. So you could use the rally car legally in a circuit race with seats and belts older than 5 years but the same car would be deemed unsafe for rallying. MSA logic at its best.
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 12:20 (Ref:3500415)   #3
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My belts are dated and the scrutineers check them at every meeting.
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 12:33 (Ref:3500417)   #4
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andrewc should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
there should be quite a lot of labels saying expiring end of 2015 or similar.
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 13:10 (Ref:3500435)   #5
Colin McKay
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Colin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridColin McKay should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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My belts are dated and the scrutineers check them at every meeting.
Likewise
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 13:40 (Ref:3500444)   #6
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It's tucked away in Q.19.14.2 https://www.msauk.org/assets/2015msayearbook.pdf

19.14.2.
Be fitted with currently FIA Homologated safety
harness to be worn at all times by the driver during
training, practice and competition unless the vehicle

was constructed in Periods A to E.
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 17:10 (Ref:3500493)   #7
Derwent Motorsp
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You are right. There is another label saying "Expire end of 2017" which will comply with 5 years on from the 2012 date on the other label. it's a pity that the MSA can't actually state the 5 year life in the BB.
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Old 3 Feb 2015, 18:55 (Ref:3500523)   #8
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When you sum up having to replace your belts every 5 years when there is nothing wrong with them you start to think why do i bother racing as someone somewhere is getting a back hander for this to be a rule ,when there are cars out on the road with 50 year old seat belts and there ok to use
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 07:42 (Ref:3500726)   #9
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Derwent I'm in the same boat as you. To avoid any disappointments at scrutinise ring I'm changing mine now. In fact the last two races both occasions the scrutinisers reminded me the expiry date was near.

There must be an awful lot of very cheap harnesses out there which are perfectly good but of no value. Where do they all end up?
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 08:02 (Ref:3500730)   #10
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I've got at least a couple of sets that are out of date still in boxes, they are still ok for trackdays etc and I have tried to give them away but no takers.
Some while back I was in a breakers yard and I saw an old complete Rover 100 picked up on the end of a crane by it's seat belt.
I looked at it and it was an old grey skinny Britax aftermarket one that was probably fitted at least 40 years ago !
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 08:05 (Ref:3500732)   #11
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There must be an awful lot of very cheap harnesses out there which are perfectly good but of no value. Where do they all end up?
£1000 worth of seats and harnesses which are 'unsafe' for rallying because they're 5 years old (and have done 12 events with no big impacts and lived in a heated workshop the whole time) can be sold on to track day drivers, autograss drivers, sprinters, rallycross (I think?) as they don't have the same lifing rule.
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 08:58 (Ref:3500747)   #12
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I sold 3 sets of near new boxed 6 point FiA belts on fleabay recently.

netted nearly enough to pay for the postage on a new set.
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 09:02 (Ref:3500749)   #13
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netted nearly enough to pay for the postage on a new set.
Blimey, you got as much as that !!!!!!!
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 10:14 (Ref:3500774)   #14
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andrewc should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You can sell out of date belts to the boy racer brigade or to the trackday market.
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Old 4 Feb 2015, 12:56 (Ref:3500818)   #15
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well it looks as though I am OK until 2017 then. However I do need a new helmet I am told. The latest spec with flameproof lining. If your lining inside your helmet is on fire then you must be in real trouble!
Due to various things beyond my control I've only done about 12 races in my current helmet and it looks like new. I do wonder if the MSA live on the same planet as the rest of us.
Some friends are very experienced stage rally competitors. They bought some top notch seats a few years ago - the same as M Sport used on the WRC Focus. They were costly but they thought they would have the best as they would see them out as they only did a few events each year. Now those seats are out of date so they have to buy new ones. So they buy much cheaper seats as they know they will have to change them in 5 years. That logic does not fit in with the MSA of course!
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Old 5 Feb 2015, 06:44 (Ref:3501186)   #16
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thought all snell 2000 or whatever it is had nomex linings?
Often wondered about if any owners or directors of harness or seat manufacturers are on either boards of MSA or the FIA.Never looked but still curious.
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Old 5 Feb 2015, 08:08 (Ref:3501214)   #17
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Derwent if you have to change your helmet it must be at least 10 years old. It doesn't take your helmet to be on fire for the nylon lining to melt onto your face.

The great seat replacement scam...The majority being inconvenienced for the few. Apparently the big manufacturers told the FIA that they couldn't guarantee the safety of their products after five years. Seems like a nice little earner.
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Old 5 Feb 2015, 22:32 (Ref:3501627)   #18
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£1000 worth of seats and harnesses which are 'unsafe' for rallying because they're 5 years old (and have done 12 events with no big impacts and lived in a heated workshop the whole time) can be sold on to track day drivers, autograss drivers, sprinters, rallycross (I think?) as they don't have the same lifing rule.
The thinking behind the seats and harnesses rule as I understand it is that a scrutineer has no way of knowing whether or not the harness or seat has been involved in a large impact, so the lifing is a way of ensuring that items which have already fulfilled their design purpose are ultimately removed from the system. I agree simple lifing is a bit of a blunt tool but I suppose the FIA come at it from a worst case scenario which in the case of a harness would be constant exposure to sun light and multiple high loads. The being able to lift a car with a 50 year old seat belt doesn't tell the whole story, agreed they will never break but a harness like a climbing rope is designed to stretch during a heavy impact reducing peak G force experienced by your body and hence the forces exerted on your internal organs as they endeavour to exit your rib cage. Helmet linings, roll cage padding and harness webbing are all designed to reduce peak forces experienced by vital organs in a heavy impact to survivable levels. The harness that has done this once will not break if required to do it again, your body may! Perhaps a longer life together with small area of load limit stiching in the harness which shows if a harness has seen a significant load would be worth considering by the powers that be?
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 05:06 (Ref:3501792)   #19
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Bit ill thought out though still.
A car could be involved in a heavey shunt and two weeks later be presented and passed by a scrutineer not knowing that the owner didn't bother/couldn't get replacements , and the car could still be passed by the scrutineer.
Hardly failsafe alternatively the FIA/MSA probably dont have room for seats/harnesses that have been seized at the scene of said accident.
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 06:27 (Ref:3501812)   #20
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As has been said before in other discussions on seats, some manufacturers will extend the life of a seat after inspection by themselves. The problem is the cost of returning seat to them, especially if in Italy......

What's really needed is a manufacturer wide agreement on inspection, so that it can be carried out by anyone licenced to do so- like extinguishers and crack testing.

But that would mean they sell less seats, so fat chance.....
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 10:15 (Ref:3501872)   #21
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Meanwhile said £1k seats and harnesses are bolted to a rotten floorpan. Seen it lots of times, not so much in historic racing but quite a lot in the various 'budget' series.
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 14:40 (Ref:3501950)   #22
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.....
What's really needed is a manufacturer wide agreement on inspection, so that it can be carried out by anyone licenced to do so- like extinguishers ........
Not necessarily Mike; I dropped 2 extinguishers into a well-known place at Castle Combe for check & recertification - they refused to do one of them as it isn't a Lifeline one, which is all they will touch apparently.
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 16:13 (Ref:3501971)   #23
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What's really needed is a manufacturer wide agreement on inspection, so that it can be carried out by anyone licenced to do so- like extinguishers and crack testing.
I am even wary as regards "anyone licensed to do so" I know it's not the same thing but I had one of my diving second stage regulators overhauled by a so called expert that was licensed, only to have it fail on it's first dive ! on inspection afterwards an O ring was omitted. Ok so we carry a backup, just as well as it was in 40mts !
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 16:52 (Ref:3501981)   #24
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Derwent Motorsp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What's the rule about seats now? My seat is not dated. I don't think the lifing applies to pre 68 cars - is that right?
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Old 6 Feb 2015, 19:14 (Ref:3502030)   #25
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What's the rule about seats now? My seat is not dated. I don't think the lifing applies to pre 68 cars - is that right?
No, up to end of period F (31/12/65), a period / non lifed seat can be used. The definition of 'period' is the difficult bit, as (for instance) a brand new bucket that looks period correct may possibly not be accepted by (for instance) scrutineers at a certain circuit in Belgium. Depends how they feel..... To be on the safe side for Spa 6 last year we ditched the non-lifed replica seat in Gilbert, and fitted an FIA one. Expensive entry fee to fail scrutineering!

David, understandable that some 'service agents' will only work on extinguishers they are licenced by manufacturer to do so. However, there are a lot of companies more used to industrial stuff that will take on anything. For seats it would have to same idea as crack testing, with an industry standard.

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