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Old 9 Jul 2018, 12:50 (Ref:3835652)   #1
GregUK
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GregUK should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
F1 Prequalifying

Remember the days when:
  • a Silverstone F1 grid would be covered by less than 2 seconds?
  • when newbie teams had to pre-qual?
  • when Ronnie would drift through Woodcote at 150mph?
  • when a spectator could talk to a driver?
  • when there was regular overtaking?
  • when a driver's skill was 85% of what made the car quick?

Dear God, F1 has lost it's way!

Let's have skinnier tyres; smaller brakes; way less aero; get rid of all the hybrid stuff and fuel limitations but add a bit more bhp. How hard can it be?
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 13:25 (Ref:3835659)   #2
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So long as you want the OEMs involved in F1, hybrid technology is here to stay.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 13:33 (Ref:3835661)   #3
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steve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsteve_r should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think F1 qualifying times are as close now as they have been for quite some time. Anyway, not to worry, carry on with your nostalgia.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 13:41 (Ref:3835663)   #4
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Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
Anyway, not to worry, carry on with your nostalgia.
Yeah, I know, I've turned into an old fart....
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 13:44 (Ref:3835664)   #5
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
Remember the days when:
  • a Silverstone F1 grid would be covered by less than 2 seconds?
  • when newbie teams had to pre-qual?
No, I do not. Silverstone 1992 had pre-qualifying. 2 cars did not pre-qualify. A further 4 did not qualify. Of those that did, the grid was covered by 7.5 seconds. This is pretty much the case for most of the 80s and early 90s.

This is nostalgia for the sake of nostalgia. Not everything was better in the old days. Cars qualifying 20 seconds off of pole is not a good thing.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 13:57 (Ref:3835665)   #6
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Remember the days when:
a Silverstone F1 grid would be covered by less than 2 seconds?
Yes, I do remember: never. This at times in the 90s was the gap between the front row and the second row. There is a reason the 107% rule exists. There is also a reason the last time it was of relevance was when Fernando Alonso and Alex Yong were driving a Minardi: One came within 107% the other did not.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 14:09 (Ref:3835668)   #7
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
Let's have skinnier tyres; smaller brakes; way less aero; get rid of all the hybrid stuff and fuel limitations but add a bit more bhp. How hard can it be?
Don't we already have vintage racing? Are you asking for vintage racing as the top series in the world?

F1 is screwed up, but trying to regulate car design and racing back to the "good old days" would not work as people expect. In general engineers can't forget what has been learned. Short of having spec cars... they will not look or perform like they did many years ago.

Richard
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 14:57 (Ref:3835673)   #8
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
Remember the days when:
  • a Silverstone F1 grid would be covered by less than 2 seconds?
  • 1977 - all 26 cars that raced qualified with 1.87 seconds.

And that year, even if you were within 2 seconds of pole, you still may not have made the cut.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:06 (Ref:3835676)   #9
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
OK, I am too young for that (born the year after), so I will concede there was a time. Was it a good race, though? And how often did that happen in the history of F1? We now have run 986 Grand Prix (according to Wikipedia as of today) so that one occurence would make about 1 %o of races. Is that something we should model our expectations after?
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:06 (Ref:3835677)   #10
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post

F1 is screwed up, but trying to regulate car design and racing back to the "good old days" would not work as people expect. In general engineers can't forget what has been learned. Short of having spec cars... they will not look or perform like they did many years ago.

Richard
What we have now is 70% a design team competition; 20% a strategy competition and 5% a driver competition - adjust the %ages as you please and, yes, I know it doesn't add up!

The emphasis needs to shift back to the driver. How it's done, I'm not too bothered about but it needs doing quickly.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:11 (Ref:3835678)   #11
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
OK, I am too young for that (born the year after), so I will concede there was a time. Was it a good race, though? And how often did that happen in the history of F1? We now have run 986 Grand Prix (according to Wikipedia as of today) so that one occurence would make about 1 %o of races. Is that something we should model our expectations after?
I was at that race - and certainly remembered that all the grid was within 2 seconds.

Was it a good race? I don't actually remember but the results suggest it wasn't nearly as close as the finish of the 1969 Italian GP:

https://youtu.be/cQURylYN13w
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:21 (Ref:3835679)   #12
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
  • 1977 - all 26 cars that raced qualified with 1.87 seconds.

And that year, even if you were within 2 seconds of pole, you still may not have made the cut.
At 50+ years of age, I am MUCH too young to remember this race. My biggest memory of 1977 is watching Star Wars and even that is somewhat hazy at this point!

Given I can't remember, I had to look at the race report on Wikipedia to see the details. So it looks like...

* 11 cars didn't even qualify
* 26 cars taking the start
* 12 cars retired during the race. This is nearly half the field. This includes cars that were running as high as third at time of retirement.
* 6th through 15th was from 1 to 6 laps down at the end.
* Leaving five cars spread out on the lead lap.

So qualifying was close, but apparently the cars were crap? The excitement of the race was to see who could make it to the end? Maybe a bit of a battle between a select few drivers? How is that better than now?

I am a bit over the top with my comments, but it's easy to cherry pick statistics to say how good it was in yesteryear. Cherry pick another set of statistics and it reads like amateur hour compared to today. Fix F1, but don't try to replicate the past. It is a bit uglier than we think it is/remember it being.

Richard
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:26 (Ref:3835680)   #13
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Originally Posted by GregUK View Post
What we have now is 70% a design team competition; 20% a strategy competition and 5% a driver competition - adjust the %ages as you please and, yes, I know it doesn't add up!

The emphasis needs to shift back to the driver. How it's done, I'm not too bothered about but it needs doing quickly.
I would say that something like aircraft and racing car design have progressed in a similar way. Early on... the designers didn't know what in the hell they were doing. So extraordinary talent in drivers/pilots were able to extract the absolute performance. Some could make it work, others couldn't.

Today, the engineers generally know what they are doing. It is much less an "art", but rather a "science". Best bet is to let pre-school children and drug addicts who are stoned out of their minds design the cars so that they are appropriately "screwed up", difficult to drive and with poor reliability. That will sort out the boys from the men when it comes to who can manage to get them over the finish line first.

Richard

PS: I am not advocating for pre-school children who ARE drug addicts. It is one or the other but not both!
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 15:41 (Ref:3835683)   #14
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
At 50+ years of age, I am MUCH too young to remember this race. My biggest memory of 1977 is watching Star Wars and even that is somewhat hazy at this point!

Given I can't remember, I had to look at the race report on Wikipedia to see the details. So it looks like...

* 11 cars didn't even qualify
* 26 cars taking the start
* 12 cars retired during the race. This is nearly half the field. This includes cars that were running as high as third at time of retirement.
* 6th through 15th was from 1 to 6 laps down at the end.
* Leaving five cars spread out on the lead lap.

So qualifying was close, but apparently the cars were crap? The excitement of the race was to see who could make it to the end? Maybe a bit of a battle between a select few drivers? How is that better than now?

I am a bit over the top with my comments, but it's easy to cherry pick statistics to say how good it was in yesteryear. Cherry pick another set of statistics and it reads like amateur hour compared to today. Fix F1, but don't try to replicate the past. It is a bit uglier than we think it is/remember it being.

Richard
You can't help being born too late!

At the time, Silverstone was limited to a maximum of 26 cars to start the race.

In 1977, 36 cars were entered. Compare that with this year!

There was pre-qualifying and 6 cars were eliminated through that, leaving 30 cars to chase the 26 available places. The slowest 4 didn't make the grid. Of these, the slowest was Emilio de Villota (father of the late Maria) who was just 3.04 seconds away from James Hunt's pole time.

This was also the race in which David Purley GM almost met his maker when the throttle of his LEC Cosworth jammed open and his hit a wall at 173kms/hr and survived a 180g stop.

Cars in that era were less reliable for sure - race cars and road cars (DAMHIK!) - but even Silverstone this weekend saw Hartley fail to qualify because of a car failure.

Different times for sure, but just 20 cars on a grid and, realistically, only 6 cars in with a shout of winning doesn't make for great racing. It needs to get better.
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Old 9 Jul 2018, 16:02 (Ref:3835687)   #15
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Kempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKempi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This year we had a 2.4s difference between first and last in Q1.

We had a roughly 4s difference in fastest laps and everyone that finished were on the lead lap. The retirements were mainly due to crashes.

If you read it that way it does not read much different to 1977. The difference is two things: the overall grid is much more competitive than it was 10, 20, 30 40 or 50 years ago. During those time the wins by "small" teams were outliers as they are today, most of the time caused by the more frequent retirements of the faster cars.

The cars are almost bulletproof, thanks to the regulations and quality control. It will not happen as often that fast cars break down and this mixing up the grid and the results.

The old times look nice, feel nice in memory but were not better.
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