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Old 12 Jul 2018, 13:17 (Ref:3836287)   #1
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The Hybrid/NA Engine Debate (moved from Future Rule Changes)

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Originally Posted by Oldtony View Post
Spot on.
Most of the suggestions here seem to be for some form of glorified Historic Racing.
Great fun and a marvelous spectacle but hardly the pinnacle of motorsport.
If you bring back 3ltr multi cyl. NA engines, limited wings or ground effects with great big wide tyres the results would still be dominated by those who could spend most money on the even more irrelevant details within those rules. And F1 would no longer be the pinnacle of motorsport.

Ok, this is the bit that I can't quite compute. If you take the current PUs they are running 100 litres for a 200 mile (approx) race. I may be off base here but that equates to around 8 MPG for the full race distance, which we know is also supported by the electrical power so I suspect they are much thirstier than that.

Current, modern V8 production engines, as we know, can produce significant power for much less fuel usage using modern injection techniques compared to the old days. The cost of tuning a stock block to produce 800bhp would be much less than the cost of 20 million per unit and it would still not use more than 8 mpg but it would be lighter than the gubbins currently in the cars thus the cars would be dynamically better. Seems to me that is not "historic racing" but road relevant pinnacle of motorsport.

Yes I realise the current PUs produce more than 800bhp but they are also significantly heavier than a V8.


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Originally Posted by Oldtony View Post
Drive out the Manufacturers and the sport would again become the domain of a breed of garageists probably funded from even more unlikely sources that we have in F1 now. And F1 would no longer be the pinnacle of motorsport.
Yup garagistes such as Jack Brabham and then Bernie E, Colin Chapman, Ken Tyrrell, Guy Ligier, MARCH, Eddie Jordan, Williams, McLaren, to name but a few. Of course there were others such as the financier of Arrows, the Italian Shoe Magnate, allegedly VJ Mallya, et al.

I can't see why having those type of characters in the sport would be so wrong. Of course it's necver going to be cheap but in my opinion proper engines are far more fuel friendly per BHP than the current crop of PUs.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 14:08 (Ref:3836294)   #2
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NA engines are currently unfashionable. Everyone wants a turbo.

I think the Le Mans issue is that the NA engines have been regulated out of viability. This is entirely a manufacturered scenario by the FIA and the ACO, there is no reason why a NA engine can't be a competitive solution for a race team if the regulations are done in way in which allows them to compete.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 14:14 (Ref:3836296)   #3
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
NA engines are currently unfashionable. Everyone wants a turbo.
Agreed but then again a turbo small capacity engine will still produce the same power as a large volume NA engine and the fuel usage will be very similar. Hence the Ford Ecoboost engines.

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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I think the Le Mans issue is that the NA engines have been regulated out of viability. This is entirely a manufacturered scenario by the FIA and the ACO, there is no reason why a NA engine can't be a competitive solution for a race team if the regulations are done in way in which allows them to compete.
Because the Manufacturers wanted to dominate.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3836299)   #4
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Toyota ran an NA engine in their hybrid LMP1 up until 2015. It's not the ACOs fault that a smaller turbo engine can under more circumstances be more economical.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 14:32 (Ref:3836300)   #5
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Yes but again here we are talking hybrids thus the fuel usage is higher than an NA and the cars are heavier. Also we are discussing Formula 1 not WEC.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 14:43 (Ref:3836302)   #6
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Yes but again here we are talking hybrids thus the fuel usage is higher than an NA and the cars are heavier. Also we are discussing Formula 1 not WEC.
All the FIA need to do is drop the minimum weight back to 500kg, 1500cc turbos,100 litres of fuel for race distance, and make the running of the hybrids optional.
We saw the hybrids are not even worth their weight in ballast when the FIA started legislating axle weights to force teams like RBR to use the hybrids in the first place.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 16:39 (Ref:3836314)   #7
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Yes but again here we are talking hybrids thus the fuel usage is higher than an NA and the cars are heavier. Also we are discussing Formula 1 not WEC.
F1 uses hybrids too... And hybrids are way more economical.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 16:51 (Ref:3836316)   #8
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My point is that without the hybrid they are using more fuel per mile than an NA engine. Yes I agree they are used in both disciplines but in WEC they are relevant.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 16:59 (Ref:3836318)   #9
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That's because you can't see the engine without the hybrid component. I don't like the term 'Power Unit' but it does work better to desciribe what's actually going on. One of the reasons the hybrid stuff is so expensive is because it becomes a fundamental part of the whole drivetrain. This is also why simply removing the MGU-H won't do much and will require a complete redesign.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 17:06 (Ref:3836319)   #10
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
My point is that without the hybrid they are using more fuel per mile than an NA engine. Yes I agree they are used in both disciplines but in WEC they are relevant.

And the fossil fuel saving that comes with the hybrids is what is highly relevant to Daimler Benz. The main board were on record 8 years or so ago that they would only give the F1 project the green light to continue if, at a minimum, that could be demonstrated.


It may not be what we like or want, but in some ways Mercedes are propping up F1 with their PU supply. And I also believe that a more "green" F1 was mandated by the FIA (or possibly just Todt) when these power unit rules were being drawn up. And now that the technology genii has appeared, it will probably be impossible to push it back in the lamp.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 17:24 (Ref:3836320)   #11
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Actually the point is that when they are using fossil fuel it's wasy way more dangerous to the planet than a normal engine. Hence the problems with the diesel engines and Merc VW etc.

So, I'm not being historic or old fashioned I'm advocating using technology that gets you more mpg per litre of fuel than the current scam. Indeed electric vehicles are good. But hybrids are a complete scam.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 17:46 (Ref:3836324)   #12
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
It may not be what we like or want, but in some ways Mercedes are propping up F1 with their PU supply.
Not sure I agree with that at all. They had a huge hand in forcing F1 down this route where it needs to be propped up. They don't then get credit for then propping it up. That's Mafia tactics - you have to pay for the protection, and the Mafia get credit for providing the protection.

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So, I'm not being historic or old fashioned I'm advocating using technology that gets you more mpg per litre of fuel than the current scam. Indeed electric vehicles are good. But hybrids are a complete scam.
I think I'm missing something because I don't see how a hybrid will get less mpg.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3836326)   #13
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Well you need the hybrid to cover the miles that the power unit doesn't. If the engine was on its own you'd only get half a gp out of it.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 17:59 (Ref:3836330)   #14
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Ahh I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure the maths on that works (or I've gotten completely the wrong end of the stick!). The hybrid is only using energy that is lost from the vehicle if you don't have the hybrid. The engine burns the energy, regardless of the hybrid being attached. The hybrid just makes sure less is wasted by deceleration.

The cars travelling more distance on the same fuel. The combustion engine is achieving the same MPG, but the car as a whole system is achieving more.
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Old 12 Jul 2018, 18:23 (Ref:3836335)   #15
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Yes that's it. The only reason the vehicle travels further on the same amount of fuel is because it's using the kinetic energy. So the green thing is a complete scam since when it's burning fuel it's doing so at a greater rate than a normal engine.

Hence we aren't actually saving the planet. Either we go completely electric or we stick with fossil fuels. Hybrids do nothing.
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