[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[Aysedasi]

I don't think peebee would class himself (herself) as an LH fan exactly.....

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Oh really. Russell hasn't convinced those he needs to. He very much has in reality. This is why Hamilton wasn't offered more than 1 year plus an option in his last 2 contract negotiations. The attempts to water down Russell by LH fans is just funny.

LOL, if they were convinced they'd have already announced a new number two for 2025.

I forgot to mention before, the concerning number of mistakes GR made in 2023.

As I have said above, it's in his hands but at the moment the jury is very much out and it would be a big risk signing another number two for 2025.

Ferrari were smart in signing Leclerc before Hamilton, as Leclerc would very much be Merc's top choice to lead the team - now Merc are left only with interesting choices.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't think peebee would class himself (herself) as an LH fan exactly.....

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

LOL, if they were convinced they'd have already announced a new number two for 2025.

I forgot to mention before, the concerning number of mistakes GR made in 2023.

As I have said above, it's in his hands but at the moment the jury is very much out and it would be a big risk signing another number two for 2025.

Ferrari were smart in signing Leclerc before Hamilton, as Leclerc would very much be Merc's top choice to lead the team - now Merc are left only with interesting choices.

George Russell is literally the reason why Hamilton wasn't offered anything more than 1 year + an option for the last TWO contracts. That is a full endorsement. Period.

Leclerc himself was beat by Carlos Sainz in 2021 . But nobody with any sense declares that Leclerc is a #2 because of it. Russell had DNFs in 2023. A couple were his fault. And he came closer to winning races than Hamilton did.

Head to head qualifying is how teammates are judged. And in 2023, Russell beat LH. Yet Russells 2023 is passed off as a Perez type season by LH fans. Its ridiculous.

The same thing will happen with Leclerc. He will beat Hamilton in 2025. But some excuses will be made about the car. And LH fans will just hope Leclerc has an off year in 2026. And they will say Leclerc is not a real #1.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Russell is absolutely elite

I've read some crazy claims over the years on this forum but this is right up there.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I've read some crazy claims over the years on this forum but this is right up there.

Maybe the comment was relative ALL drivers, then he's nailed it. But then Stroll and maybe even Badoer, Mazapin or Ide might even be considered so.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

George Russell is literally the reason why Hamilton wasn't offered anything more than 1 year + an option for the last TWO contracts. That is a full endorsement. Period.

Sorry, that is complete fantasy.

And you clearly don't know who wanted the option...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Maybe the comment was relative ALL drivers, then he's nailed it. But then Stroll and maybe even Badoer, Mazapin or Ide might even be considered so.

Just to be clear...

Are you even remotely suggestimg some people consider those sorts of guys are the same level as Russell?!

As an aside. Luca Badoer is still ill-judged on his Ferrari 2009 disaster. The 1992-'99 version was a far far better driver than those few races showed, but by that time in his life he had no inclination or opportunities afterwards to show that he was!

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Just to be clear...

Are you even remotely suggestimg some people consider those sorts of guys are the same level as Russell?!

As an aside. Luca Badoer is still ill-judged on his Ferrari 2009 disaster. The 1992-'99 version was a far far better driver than those few races showed, but by that time in his life he had no inclination or opportunities afterwards to show that he was!

I took that as in Luca Badoer, Yuji Ide etc are elite in comparison to the average Joe that gets behind the wheel of his Kia Rio on the daily.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Sorry, that is complete fantasy.

And you clearly don't know who wanted the option...

I love when people use sayings like, case closed, literally, absolutely when the statement is purely opinion.

Conveniently forgetting in this argument that Mercedes have this young charger called Antonelli that they are considering to promote straight to the parent team instead of giving him two years to cook in a Williams like they did with the ELITE George Russell.

If George is so elite and clearly the best there is then why wouldn't they just throw in a vanilla second driver like Bottas or Ocon?

anyway welcome to the forum new guy, keep the opinions coming, they keep things interesting around here

[GTRMagic]

There has been so much rubbish written on the socials about Mr Hamilton and the Ferrari move... unless i missed something, Mr Hamilton's plan was to become a Mercedes ambassador upon his retirement, and to work with various charities at the behest and investment on behalf of Mercedes. Equally Mr Hamilton was looking for a longer term deal to keep driving (2y+). And presumably a change in stipend to reflect Mr Hamilton's status as the GOAT, all powered by Mercedes.

None of these things happened... despite the public lovefest everywhere between the team principal and the driver.

So why wouldnt the driver see a rejection of his requirementsas anything other than an act of bad faith.

Ferrari is a massive lure.. emotionally... and when the emotional needs are largely snubbed by the current locale... its not a big stretch to see the link.

Will the outcome be successful? Well it is for current Ferrari Spa shareholders..
And the Tifosi...

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

There has been so much rubbish written on the socials about Mr Hamilton and the Ferrari move... unless i missed something, Mr Hamilton's plan was to become a Mercedes ambassador upon his retirement, and to work with various charities at the behest and investment on behalf of Mercedes. Equally Mr Hamilton was looking for a longer term deal to keep driving (2y+). And presumably a change in stipend to reflect Mr Hamilton's status as the GOAT, all powered by Mercedes.

None of these things happened... despite the public lovefest everywhere between the team principal and the driver.

So why wouldnt the driver see a rejection of his requirementsas anything other than an act of bad faith.

Ferrari is a massive lure.. emotionally... and when the emotional needs are largely snubbed by the current locale... its not a big stretch to see the link.

Will the outcome be successful? Well it is for current Ferrari Spa shareholders..
And the Tifosi...

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

To be fair, nobody forced Hamilton to sign his most recent Mercedes contract with the above terms stipulated.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

As for Mr Russell being the greatest pilot since sliced bread... he hasnt shown that against the GOAT... maybe its there, under the covers. How he survives against Mr Alonso will be interesting... it will either be enriching... or a fundamental head fornication... and its hard to know which one...

Check the 2022 standings.

So now defending Russell from the same old tired tactics that every Hamilton teammate falls under, suddenly means I am saying he's "the best pilot since sliced bread"

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I've read some crazy claims over the years on this forum but this is right up there.

Mercedes could have easily moved Russell in 2020-2021 to another team for a transfer fee. And signed Hamilton to another 5+ year deal. And avoided all of this. Maybe you can enlighten me as to why they didn't.

Is it because they didn't think he was elite ?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Check the 2022 standings.

So now defending Russell from the same old tired tactics that every Hamilton teammate falls under, suddenly means I am saying he's "the best pilot since sliced bread"

Well, to be fair, it's not a huge step from 'elite' to 'sliced bread'......

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Skam85

I took that as in Luca Badoer, Yuji Ide etc are elite in comparison to the average Joe that gets behind the wheel of his Kia Rio on the daily.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Mercedes could have easily moved Russell in 2020-2021 to another team for a transfer fee. And signed Hamilton to another 5+ year deal. And avoided all of this. Maybe you can enlighten me as to why they didn't.

Is it because they didn't think he was elite ?

Marketing... Ham's commercial value to Mercedes was so good they couldn't let him walk. Russell isn't going to sell anywhere near as much merch as Ham.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

Marketing... Ham's commercial value to Mercedes was so good they couldn't let him walk. Russell isn't going to sell anywhere near as much merch as Ham.

Yes. Hams marketing and commercial value is high. So why didn't they just transfer George Russell to another team in 2020/21 and sign Hamilton to another 5 or maybe even 7 year deal ?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

Yes. Hams marketing and commercial value is high. So why didn't they just transfer George Russell to another team in 2020/21 and sign Hamilton to another 5 or maybe even 7 year deal ?

With no wins in 2022 and '23 maybe he thought it was time to move on?

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

With no wins in 2022 and '23 maybe he thought it was time to move on?

He was already on 1-2 year deals in 2020
before the last 2 years happened.

During the 2020 season, Hamilton failed to agree a new deal before his contract expired that year, though he went on to sign a one-year deal in February 2021. That evolved into his present contract in July 2021 when Hamilton signed a two-year deal.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by PanozDP01

He was already on 1-2 year deals in 2020
before the last 2 years happened.

During the 2020 season, Hamilton failed to agree a new deal before his contract expired that year, though he went on to sign a one-year deal in February 2021. That evolved into his present contract in July 2021 when Hamilton signed a two-year deal.

apologies for being pedantic...but if he only singed a 1 year deal covering only 2021 and then if he, subsequently in july of 2021, only signed a new two year deal (ostensibly for the 2022 and 2023 seasons) then that would mean he has no contract for 2024?

some time line issues here i think...but no worries, i get your meaning.

surely the assumption to draw from this is that it is Ham himself who has long favoured short term deals given the flexibility that they offer?

and rightly so given the last two cars Merc has produced and the very real possibility that they wont catch up until 2026 and only then if they get the new rules right.

and this may be harsh, the biggest knock against GR might just be how surprised Merc were by Ham's announcement.

just my own inference, but Merc never really came out saying that GR is their leader going forward but instead seem to saying they will wait and see how this season goes, see who is available for 2025 etc.

if any criticism for GR's future potential is to be had, its not necessarily coming from Ham-fans but rather from the lack of advocacy coming from Merc itself?

[Mike Harte]

As none of us, the media or even our inside contact in the paddock were party to the contract discussions between Hamilton's team and Mercedes, who knows who only wanted a short period contract. My gut feeling is that as Hamilton had an option to extend his stay at Mercedes for a further year - 2025 - it would appear logical that his side requested a short contract.

However, that is pure speculation bearing in mind that Mercedes doesn't appear to have a reciprocal option, unless, of course, that they hadn't triggered it in time.

[bjohnsonsmith]

My gut feeling is Hamilton had had enough and by going to Ferrari in 2025, he would be there when development was starting on the 2026 formula. However, that would mean seeing 2024 through at Mercedes and if he managed to get a win or two, so much the better.

[Skam85]

Personally I think there was a fair bit of hubris involved by Toto and co, thinking "Lewis will never leave us".

So they negotiated the deal with Hamilton giving up the barest possible in terms of years and off-track terms. As all successful businesses should.

While Lewis still signed the deal with Merc, probably not feeling the love as much as he would have expected, knowing now with get-out clauses for both parties, he went sniffing elsewhere and the rest is history.

The 'George Russell factor' would have been so low in Mercedes' considerations during these contract negotiations that it wouldn't have made it out of pre-qualifying.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

As none of us, the media or even our inside contact in the paddock were party to the contract discussions between Hamilton's team and Mercedes, who knows who only wanted a short period contract. My gut feeling is that as Hamilton had an option to extend his stay at Mercedes for a further year - 2025 - it would appear logical that his side requested a short contract.

However, that is pure speculation bearing in mind that Mercedes doesn't appear to have a reciprocal option, unless, of course, that they hadn't triggered it in time.

https://www.silverarrows.net/news/to...as-kept-short/

“So last year when we signed a new deal, we wanted to keep it short to see what the future will hold,” the Austrian said.

“And that was an agreement we had with Lewis. We knew that this would eventually end maybe two years down the line, but we knew there was the option for a one-year deal.

“And insofar the timing was a bit of a surprise, but the decision in itself didn’t come out of nowhere.”