Ralt RT 5

[Chris Townsend]

Bob

I think you may be right about the Follmer car not being yours, but I don't think it's 342. The OT report suggests to me that Arciero still own the car and just bring it out for Follmer to run. This can't then be 342 because that car goes to Witt Racing for Price Cobb and then to Arie Luyendijk.
this car then for sale by Richard Haskell OT 31.3.86 p. 77 "the 83 prototype driven by Andretti at Phoenix then Cobb and Luyendijk"

I think this one is yours: for sale OT 29.4.85 p. 69 81 RT5 ex Andretti/Prappas updated to 83 spec by RPM Motorsports.

So far as I can see Andretti uses the following
1981 late season: John Paul Racing, either 230 or 243
1982 Arciero: began with 201, then replaced by 342

Chris

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Bob

I think this one is yours: for sale OT 29.4.85 p. 69 81 RT5 ex Andretti/Prappas updated to 83 spec by RPM Motorsports.

Chris

I don't think so. My car has the 80 rear suspension (plate over the gearbox) the 81 doesn't have that. Also my logbooks start in 80. That ad was probably 230 or 243 John Paul car that Andretti drove in 81. We need to check the entry lists from 81 to see if Andretti was driving an 81 model.

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Bob

So far as I can see Andretti uses the following
1981 late season: John Paul Racing, either 230 or 243
1982 Arciero: began with 201, then replaced by 342

Chris

I think this is what I was saying. Where did you get the 82 info? If the entry lists from the beginning of 82 list Andretti in an 80 model then I think that was my car, 201 which was replaced as you say with 342. Now I need to go to Arciero and look at the chassis plate on the car in the showroom. I have a friend that lives near there. I will try to get him to check it and will report back.

This is great fun!

Bob

[John Turner]

Ok, we're getting too many 'sticky' threads, so I'm unsticking this one. I'm sure Chris will rescue it, when he is ready!

[Bob Micheletti]

Update on the car in the Arciero showroom...

My friend went by the Arciero winery in Paso Robles California to check the chassis plate on the RT-5 that is sitting in the showroom with a placard describing it as "The Michael Andretti car". The number is RT5-402. This puts another twist in the puzzle!

Bob Micheletti
RT5-201

[Chris Townsend]

Bob

As you are probably aware by now, Michael Andretti drove all ground effect Ralts delivered to North America whether FSV or Atlantic...

This is described in Ralt records as an 83 car delivered 19 March 83 to Penske. Michael Andretti only drove Long Beach SV in 83 [IIRC] spending rest of year in Atlantic. His Long Beach car was probably 390, sold after the race to Hank Chapman, and then on to Ben Gustafsson/Graham Scott.

Happy new year
Chris

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Bob

As you are probably aware by now, Michael Andretti drove all ground effect Ralts delivered to North America whether FSV or Atlantic...

Chris

LOL!!! Yep that is what I've heard. I was going to elaborate on the fact that he was done with Super Vee's by the time that #402 was built! But before I make any guesses (or accusations) I want to look at that car myself. My friend is a vintage racer and I believe what he saw in correct but I just like to see it for myself before I comment on it.

Bob Micheletti
RT5-201

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Ok, we're getting too many 'sticky' threads, so I'm unsticking this one.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is a "sticky thread"?

[John Turner]

Nothing to worry about, Bob. It's just a thread that mods have 'pinned' or 'stuck up' at the top of the forum page. It stays at the top whether or not anyone has posted on it recently.

[Michael Edick]

Looks like I've been away too long!
what started out as a simple "where did my car come from" to a running history of the RT5...cool!
I would still like to have an opinion or two on why the heck does my car have a fuel cell bladder registered to Andretti's RT5-342? Did he possibly use it? was it used for spares (which may account for the condition it was in when I bought it...basket case doesn't begin to describe it!!!) ???
and my car is for sale, BTW...

Michael

[Michael Edick]

and one more question...

When did the series start allowing the 1835cc motor vs. the 1600cc?

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by Michael Edick

and one more question...

When did the series start allowing the 1835cc motor vs. the 1600cc?

Super Vee was always 1600 for water cooled engines. The cars got the 1835's when Super Vee racing went away and SCCA allowed them to run as FAs. AFAIK the fields were quite small in club Atlantic so to help fill them out the ex Super vees were allowed to go up to 1835cc, upgrade the brakes and use wider wheels/tires. The 1600 Rabbit motors would never have come close to the 220Hp that the 1600 Cosworth BDAs were making in the legitimate Atlantics, but an 1835 came close enough to attract allot of otherwise homeless Super Vees. The rules in Super Vee also required VW brakes and 6" front, 8" rear wheels which also made them weak competition for an Atlantic. Most of the ex FA Super Vees that are running vintage now have 4 puck alloy brakes and 8"/10" wheels along with 1800's.

[allenbrown]

That's interesting. So where does Formula Continental fit into this mix? SCCA classes in the early 1980s baffle me.

Allen

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

That's interesting. So where does Formula Continental fit into this mix? SCCA classes in the early 1980s baffle me.

Allen

I hope someone else will chime in to confirm (or correct) but as I remember FC was the SCCA class for FF-2000. I don't remember if any other cars were allowed to run in FC. They were tube chassis cars with basically stock 2.0 single overhead cam ford motors. In about 89 or 90 USAC started a pro class for the cars and called it FF-2000 as it was in Europe but I don't think it was ever called FF-2000 in SCCA. The USAC races were a mix of road courses and ovals. This is of course the 80's version of FC (Formula Continental) not the 60's version (Formula C) which was the equivlent of F3 in Europe. I am sure some of this is right but I didn't follow it like I did Super Vee so I am half guessing.

Bob

[Pierce Ferriter]

Originally Posted by Bob Micheletti

I have car #5-201 with all logbooks starting with 9-18-1980. Logbooks are #80-032. I was told this car was run by Pete Halsmer/Arciero the end of 80 and all of 81. I believe this coincides with his switch from an RT-1 to an RT-5. In 82 when Michael Andretti joined Arcero supposedly he drove this car until his 82 arrived. The car was teched at 9 pro races in 82 but may have been a back up car at the later races. It was then sold to Ted Prappas/Mike Curb who ran it in a few races in 83-84. After that it became a West Coast regional car. Any info to back up this story would be greatly appreciated. I can list all of the dates and tracks in the logbooks if that is of any interest to anyone.

I am about to do a full restoration and race it in Vintage races on the West Coast.

Bob Micheletti
SoCal

Bob...long story short..I tried to get your attention on another forum...I worked for Arciero in 1980 and picked your car up from the Air Terminal at Chicago O'hare....took it to Bertils and spent the rest of the season with it...I have tons of old pictures and stories....it was a great time in my life...I grew up with Pete Halsmers family and worked for him while going to Purdue...get ahold of me for some good old stuff...
I'm no longer into the race car thing and have spent my passion on motorcycles the past 30 years...looking forward to hearing from you...

Pierce - Dayton, Ohio

[Pierce Ferriter]

Bob...see my reply to one of your older posts below...I have history with your car since new...

Pierce - Dayton, Ohio

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by Pierce Ferriter

Bob...see my reply to one of your older posts below...I have history with your car since new...

Pierce - Dayton, Ohio

Ten-Tenths is an amazing place!!!!

[Halsmer]

Hey Pierce, great to see your name! I think I worked on this same car in 84 and 85 when Prappas was driving it for RPM Motorsports. Although the way I remember it, none of Prappas's RT-5's ever lasted longer than about 4 months. Pretty cool cars aren't they.

I've got a lot of pics of Prappas's cars and the RPM cars.

Tim

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by Bob Micheletti

Update on the car in the Arciero showroom...

My friend went by the Arciero winery in Paso Robles California to check the chassis plate on the RT-5 that is sitting in the showroom with a placard describing it as "The Michael Andretti car". The number is RT5-402. This puts another twist in the puzzle!

Bob Micheletti
RT5-201

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

This is described in Ralt records as an 83 car delivered 19 March 83 to Penske.

Well I finally went to the Arciero/EOS winery myself and I misquoted the placard. It says, "1984 Ralt - Roger Penske, Jr. - 2nd Place Finisher at Caesar's Palace - 2nd Place Finisher at Laguna Seca - Identical to Arciero Racing Team Ralt driven by Michael Andretti to 1982 Championship".

Chris, It looks like that matches the Ralt records (except for the 1984) and it is lettered with Penske Jr's name as well.

Just wanted to clarify that and sorry for the mistake.

Bob Micheletti
RT5-201

[adavies]

From c.1981 to 1987 the SCCA allowed watercooled SV's to run in their Formula Continental/FC class with some restrictions from the pro SV spec. IIRC, they had to use small bore Webers instead of the pro SV injection, 6 and 8 wheels, etc.

SCCA runoff winners in FC from 81-87 were all in RT5's: Jim Hickman in 1981, Terry McKenna 1982-84, and Lou Rettenmeier 1985-87.

After that, the SCCA bumped the SV's into FA, allowing them 1835cc and 8 and 10 inch wheels (as the pro SV's were running) along with free brakes, and that's where they run today in the SCCA.

[Bob Micheletti]

Originally Posted by adavies

From c.1981 to 1987 the SCCA allowed watercooled SV's to run in their Formula Continental/FC class with some restrictions from the pro SV spec. SCCA runoff winners in FC from 81-87 were all in RT5's After that, the SCCA bumped the SV's into FA, allowing them 1835cc and 8 and 10 inch wheels (as the pro SV's were running) along with free brakes, and that's where they run today in the SCCA.

Thanks for the update...that's how I remember it but I had no idea that they dominated the class for that long or started that early. What other cars were running in Continental/FC in that period?

Bob Micheletti
RT-5 201

[RussMcB]

Here's what I remember from when I started racing in SCCA in 1984 in New England, USA (Lime Rock, Bryar, Bridgehampton, Pocono):

The Formula Continental class had a variety of car types: mostly water cooled super vees (Ralt, March, etc.), as well as air cooled super vees (Lola, Tui, etc.), 1100cc Cosworth cars (Brabham) and a growing number of 2.0l Pinto "Super Fords" (Reynard).

By the latter 1980's, it seemed the only new cars being built for the class in numbers were the Pinto powered cars. They were growing in popularity but couldn't match the pace of the Ralt RT-5's with ground effects and 185 HP engines, so the FSV cars were moved up a class and given a few allowances to help them compete with Formula Atantics (1835 cc, bigger brakes & 2" wider wheels).

(My sig is old. Sold my RT5 a few years ago ... :-(.

[Bart Perlman]

Reading all these posts has raised my curiousity regarding my car. When I purchased it, approximately three years ago it did not have a chassis plate. It did however have a tub number (AM 83-70) and a SCCA log book (61-465). The earliest entry in the log book is 3/18/89 by the Driver/Entrant Patrick Jones. The car appears to have changed hands the following year with subsequent entries by a Richard R Daniel (?).
The last owner said this was Chip Robinson's car for the 1984 Bosch Formula Super Vee Championship. It came with three notebooks full of set up data from various tracks around the country. Two notebooks full of typed information refer to Cary and Steve Bren. As I said these are typed, so they may be photo copies. However, the last notebook is full of handwritten data, obviously original. The two drivers mentioned are Dennis Vitolo and Paul Radisch. Lastlly, alot of these pages refer to Chassis #34 and a few refer to Chassis #43. Maybe, these were the two Bren cars, or possibly other team cars. Can anybody shed any more light on this car. Thank you in advance.

[Chris Townsend]

Bart

Do you have a number off the gearbox? [Or the fuel cell number if you stripped the car?] There is a little group of 83 RT5s where my records don't include the tub but do have these numbers [though the gearbox might easily be changed by now] Your car seems to be in this group of 10 cars! However, I know where a number of these went so we can narrow your car down [probably] to 419, 421, 423, 430 [which I think went to Vitolo in Oct 83] or 436
Car swapping seems to have been rife within SV in the mid 80s. I've lost track of how many different cars Vitolo appears in. Radisich is, however, a different matter because he comes to the series late, running 2nd at LB in 1985 with what is described as an RT4/85 of Simpson Racing but which probably has to be an 84 or 83 updated.

FWIW I think Robinson's 84 pro car was RT5/84 459. He might well have carried his 83 car as spare however [which was run by Bill Scott in 83]
43 and 34 were the two works cars [43 is always the first number run by a Robertson entered car in SV or Atlantic] the Bren brothers ran with works in 84/5

Chris

[Bart Perlman]

Chris,

Thank you for filling in a few blanks. I took the Chip Robinson assertions with a grain of salt. Although, I did have the car stripped down at one point, I didn't realize the fuel cell had any ID number. It is a Marston cell, which I am sure was original. Just checking the gearbox number revealed H9 4328. Does this help with any further identification, or do you feel this would not be the original tranny? When you talk about car #430, 428, etc., does this refer to part of the tranny number? For example would my car be either #432 or 328.

[Chris Townsend]

Bart

The three figure numbers I'm quoting would be the Ralt chassis number.
Interestingly Hewland Mk9 H94328 was, according to Ralt records, fitted not to an RT5, but to an RT3 built for Eddie Jordan Racing and delivered Feb 83.
This was on Rt3/83 chassis 382 which was, I think, one of the cars that was in the Jordan transporter when it went down a mountainside on the way back from the support race at the Austrian GP.
Quite possible that the gearbox survived even if the car didn't. Does mean we are kind of reliant on the fuel cell for a firm i.d.

Best
Chris