The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Mal]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just the fact that you compare the Le Mans effort with their F1 projects shows that you have no understanding of their efforts.

Some elements of the project started already in 2008 with the Dome S102 (this is with 80-90% certainty).
Toyota starts very low key with this project and speaks only of this year as testing and seeing what it will bring - Very different than the F1 project.
The simple fact that Toyota joins firstly with Rebellion to test engines and later Oreca shows how seriously and respectful they take this project, they have learned very much from the F1 project, and hasn't done the same mistake!

I think it's respect less to mock my comment without putting forth some arguments against.

Mind you I seem to remember a school of thought in the late "90s that the GT1 project was a training ground for the up coming F1 project?

[TF110]

They only failed in F1 because of the direction of the team, IMO. They went it alone. Made their car, team, facilities, decisions on their own. Trulli and Ralf were never top drivers, neither was Glock, and Kobayashi was top 6 as a stand in. When Pascal Vasselon took over the cars got better. In 09 they were the 3rd best team behind Red Bull and Brawn. I think the structure of the team needed some work. But the results were there even with mediocre drivers, at best. Their LMP project has backing by Toyota co. TMG and Oreca's team know how, I think they're all set for a good showing.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Whats the RLM rumour about ?

RLM seem to have an inside track on what's going on at Toyota, for some time they've been saying it would be a multi-car entry, rumours of one car may stem from knowledge three drivers would be announced.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Mal

Mind you I seem to remember a school of thought in the late "90s that the GT1 project was a training ground for the up coming F1 project?

True, but it gained them nothing.
Like the Peugeot F1 V10 gained nothing from the Le Mans projects.

Besides i didn't say Toyota didn't test or prepare in F1. I'm saying that Toyota is very likely to be better prepared for Le Mans than F1.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

RLM seem to have an inside track on what's going on at Toyota, for some time they've been saying it would be a multi-car entry, rumours of one car may stem from knowledge three drivers would be announced.

LM or WEC multi-car?

[Peugeot908]

I hate to see Wurz, Minassian, and Gene leave but I wish them the best. How could Kimi Räikkönen fit in with Peugeot's plans?

-Peugeot908

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Peugeot908

I hate to see Wurz, Minassian, and Gene leave but I wish them the best. How could Kimi Räikkönen fit in with Peugeot's plans?

-Peugeot908

I would exclude Raikkonen at this point because Raikkonen+Williams rumors have been really heavy lately... there might be an announcement this weekend at Abu Dhabi GP.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just the fact that you compare the Le Mans effort with their F1 projects shows that you have no understanding of their efforts.

Some elements of the project started already in 2008 with the Dome S102 (this is with 80-90% certainty).
Toyota starts very low key with this project and speaks only of this year as testing and seeing what it will bring - Very different than the F1 project.
The simple fact that Toyota joins firstly with Rebellion to test engines and later Oreca shows how seriously and respectful they take this project, they have learned very much from the F1 project, and hasn't done the same mistake!

I think it's respect less to mock my comment without putting forth some arguments against.

Calm down big fella.
I am really looking forward to a successful Toyota return, and hope that they go well.Their driver line up looks promising. The first thing that they did right, was to go straight to Hugues de Chaunac and align themselves with, arguably, the best run team in sports car racing (other than the factories). However, Toyota, as a factory entrant will still, no doubt have a big say in where their money is going, and that's what worries me. Whether you agree or not, the baggage that they still carry from their F1 days, still hangs over their heads. I will be gladly proven wrong if they hang around for the long haul, and by that, I mean 3 plus years, which will take them through the new rule set by 2014.
I don't see how you can draw too much from the Dome (powered by a Judd engine) project. Sure, they had ties with Toyota, but pretty loose ones. Toyota didn't even promote or draw any value out of the Dome exercise, or if they did, it was well camouflaged. Anything they would have drawn from the Dome car will be well out of date and of negligible value to them in 2012 and beyond.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by porsche91722

Calm down big fella.
I am really looking forward to a successful Toyota return, and hope that they go well.Their driver line up looks promising. The first thing that they did right, was to go straight to Hugues de Chaunac and align themselves with, arguably, the best run team in sports car racing (other than the factories). However, Toyota, as a factory entrant will still, no doubt have a big say in where their money is going, and that's what worries me. Whether you agree or not, the baggage that they still carry from their F1 days, still hangs over their heads. I will be gladly proven wrong if they hang around for the long haul, and by that, I mean 3 plus years, which will take them through the new rule set by 2014.
I don't see how you can draw too much from the Dome (powered by a Judd engine) project. Sure, they had ties with Toyota, but pretty loose ones. Toyota didn't even promote or draw any value out of the Dome exercise, or if they did, it was well camouflaged. Anything they would have drawn from the Dome car will be well out of date and of negligible value to them in 2012 and beyond.

The Dome S102 was fitted with a Toyota hybrid system and engine and tested, something which could play a crucial part on the decision about hybrid and how it should be formed.
Everybody knew that the S102 was a toe in the water exercise from Toyota, as Dome themselves has said numerous times that they only build chassis for manufactures, they have no intension of running them, themselves.
Besides what i responded to earlier was that you questioned the reliability of the hybrid system.
Something which is tested several times and run with great success before.
Again, Toyota knows what they are doing, and wouldn't waste their money on a half ass project. The car Toyota brings next year will be race ready.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by CTD

True, but it gained them nothing.
Like the Peugeot F1 V10 gained nothing from the Le Mans projects.

Besides i didn't say Toyota didn't test or prepare in F1. I'm saying that Toyota is very likely to be better prepared for Le Mans than F1.

I hope you are right and I think you are as they appear to have copied the Audi model in their approach.

There is no doubt that Oreca will bring massive experience and expertise to the test and race operation, and the driver choice is looking quite strong so as long as the basic car is good and reliable they should do well.

It will be great to have at least 3 factory teams competing for the wins.

[AGD]

The ACO did an interview with Vasselon. In terms of the number of cars, Vasselon said "at least one." That is interesting. In terms of the goals and whether winning is the goal, Vasselon said no and being the first hybrid car on a WEC podium is the goal. In terms of which races, he's only confirming Le Mans at the moment.

http://www.lemans.org/fr/actualites/...ota__5582.html

[CTD]

Originally Posted by AGD

The ACO did an interview with Vasselon. In terms of the number of cars, Vasselon said "at least one." That is interesting. In terms of the goals and whether winning is the goal, Vasselon said no and being the first hybrid car on a WEC podium is the goal. In terms of which races, he's only confirming Le Mans at the moment.

http://www.lemans.org/fr/actualites/...ota__5582.html

A bit funny yes. But if their goal is to be the first Hybrid on the podium, then we must expect to see them in the very first race?.
Otherwise it means that they expect to finish on the podium in Le Mans.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by CTD

A bit funny yes. But if their goal is to be the first Hybrid on the podium, then we must expect to see them in the very first race?.
Otherwise it means that they expect to finish on the podium in Le Mans.

He says WEC, but Peugeot may bring their hybrid to Sebring and surely they would have a pretty good shot at a podium. Maybe Toyota will be there too and can contend for the podium, but I don't know if they will be ready. Even if they are ready, I don't know if they can be competitive with so little actual on-track development with the actual car itself.

Perhaps they are just setting the expectation bar low to avoid any possible embarrassment or maybe they know something about Peugeot's hybrid program that we don't know. I suppose it is possible that Peugeot may not want to race their hybrid right away, but on the other hand, you know they want to steal thunder away from Toyota.

[TF110]

It'll be revealed later this year, testing early next year. The engine part has been in development for 2 years it's been said. Like F1, the car will be ready and done. The only thing left is getting it tested. HPD did Sebring without turning a wheel, Toyota is more than capable.

[JAG]

Wurz mentioned Toyota's entrance would be medium to long-term, he personally doesn't want to wait too long to win Le Mans, by that he meant within 3 years.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

Some elements of the project started already in 2008 with the Dome S102 (this is with 80-90% certainty).

Certainly according to wishful thinking back then. From the Autosport article: "Kinosh!ta said: 'We began feasibility studies for an LMP1 car during 2010 and this programme was expanded gradually over the subsequent months.'"

[deggis]

Originally Posted by AGD

The ACO did an interview with Vasselon. In terms of the number of cars, Vasselon said "at least one." That is interesting. In terms of the goals and whether winning is the goal, Vasselon said no and being the first hybrid car on a WEC podium is the goal. In terms of which races, he's only confirming Le Mans at the moment.

http://www.lemans.org/fr/actualites/...ota__5582.html

Exclusif, indeed because I can't find this on the English version of the site.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by deggis

Certainly according to wishful thinking back then. From the Autosport article: "Kinosh!ta said: 'We began feasibility studies for an LMP1 car during 2010 and this programme was expanded gradually over the subsequent months.'"

The who placed the order for the Dome S102?.
Dome won't build cars without a serious buyer, this has been said several times by Dome.
Also at Le Mans, the car was filled with Toyota drivers.

The general opinion back then was that the car was a toe in the water exercise from Toyota.

[kurski]

Lotus team from the left by Dieter Gass returned to Germany and possibly back to Toyota Le Mans team?...hmm

[cdsvg]

One thing we do know is that Toyota was testing a Dome S101 (the open top car) with a turbo engine of some sort during late 2008, there are photos of it (or at least one), it was at Fuji, I think. Probably that car + engine had nothing much to do with the current effort, but it shows that Toyota have been looking very seriously at this for a number of years. Whether the S102 at Le Mans was also a Toyota toe in the water, we dont really know, but it looked like it at the time.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by CTD

The who placed the order for the Dome S102?.
Dome won't build cars without a serious buyer, this has been said several times by Dome.

Naive reasoing based on only some ambiguous quotes (PR context). That would actually make more sense if Dome was now involved in the upcoming project.

Also at Le Mans, the car was filled with Toyota drivers.

True but still far-fetched connection.

The general opinion back then was that the car was a toe in the water exercise from Toyota.

General opinions are not by definition facts.

[Joe Taylor]

I thought 2008 was an attempt by Dome to entice Toyota into sportscars, rather than a toe in the water effort by Toyota.

[deggis]

Back to this for a moment so that it can be forgotten:

Finally we hear that in the next couple of years F1 may not be the only series with KERS and DRS!

F.Nippon or whatever its going to be called in future: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...to-adopt-kers/

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Joe Taylor

I thought 2008 was an attempt by Dome to entice Toyota into sportscars, rather than a toe in the water effort by Toyota.

According to this recent article from Racecar Engineering, you thought right.

[DeathOrGlory]

Speaking of Dome...

Mariantic also posted that Taki Inoue is also somewhat involved, he's been tweeting about updating the S102 apparently. Rumor of a Toyota RV8KLM engine, with the updates, the Big Honking Fin and the Big Honking Holes.

I say DO IT! But will Dome allow it?