Proposed Changes to Flag Regs

[Gordon Knight]

Originally Posted by Colin Barnes

Gordon
In the scenario you describe you would be showing a waved yellow at Lakeside, that is the post before double waved at Island-in. If only a single waved yellow at Island-in then the question you pose is relevant. Given a choice of no flag or a waved green there is no definite right or wrong but at this section of the circuit I might just go for a waved green

Colin your'e spot on as usual....I think it must be time for bed.
Boinnnnng !

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by Colin Barnes

I would be inclined to show no flag at all unless the next post (stationery yellow) is distant enough and visible enough to allow a possible overtaking manoevre in which case its a waved green.

I presume that you mean single waved yellow rather than "stationAry yellow"!

[exflagman]

Just to throw a quick thought into the mix - in the given situation, with the new rules you may have to also consider whether or not the single waved yellow is really a just single waved or maybe a lone flag marshal trying to wave one flag and pick up a second or possible even one who recognises that they cannot wave two flags at once so is just going to wave one so it can be seen properly rather than attempt two and end up with neither being particularly visible.

[Dan Friel]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Just to throw a quick thought into the mix - in the given situation, with the new rules you may have to also consider whether or not the single waved yellow is really a just single waved or maybe a lone flag marshal trying to wave one flag and pick up a second or possible even one who recognises that they cannot wave two flags at once so is just going to wave one so it can be seen properly rather than attempt two and end up with neither being particularly visible.

Surely the new flag rules mean that there can be no circumstance where lone flagging is adequate?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

Surely the new flag rules mean that there can be no circumstance where lone flagging is adequate?

But it is still going to happen and, at some circuits, quite often.

Jim

[Richard Duvall]

Maybe if a lone flag marshal is unable to wave two yellows, a reasonable compromise could be to hang the second yellow over the Armco an let it flap in the breeze? This might be enough to indicate to the previous post that they need to get their single waved out.

[numbersix]

You can hold two flags in one hand. It's the waving that's the tricky bit.

In view of the fact that a stationary yellow no longer exists, I would have thought any driver seeing two "slow moving" yellows would get the gist of the message.

[Slipstick]

Not long now and we can all try it out for ourselves. The trouble is I'm now hoping for incidents cus I'm going to feel a bit cheated if after all this talk I don't even need to wear myself out waving multiple flags .

Steve

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by numbersix

You can hold two flags in one hand. It's the waving that's the tricky bit.

Depends somewhat on the size of the flag-pole - doubt there are many people around with hands big enough to hold two broom handles.

Originally Posted by numbersix

In view of the fact that a stationary yellow no longer exists, I would have thought any driver seeing two "slow moving" yellows would get the gist of the message.

I thought the whole premise for this load of 'round objects' was to improve the visibility of flag signals, not try and test the mental agility of drivers.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Depends somewhat on the size of the flag-pole - doubt there are many people around with hands big enough to hold two broom handles.

I would have thought the average sized person could grasp two standard flag poles "Darth Maul" style with one flag thumb-side and the other on the opposite side. Whether that's possible in a wind remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by exflagman

I thought the whole premise for this load of 'round objects' was to improve the visibility of flag signals, not try and test the mental agility of drivers.

Good point, well made.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I would have thought the average sized person could grasp two standard flag poles "Darth Maul" style with one flag thumb-side and the other on the opposite side. Whether that's possible in a wind remains to be seen.

What about the effect of freezing cold wet hands and/or gloves?
What is a 'standard flag pole' - even with the thin poles I had on my own flags it was tricky to hold and CONTROL two flags at once with one hand. That was before you factor in the effects of the weight of water held by the material used in many 'circuit flags' - then it tends to get more tricky.
I think there may be even more unexpected problems.
With the old system it was perfectly possible for a lone flag marshal to provide an 'adequate' blue flag service and still have the capability to switch to a waved yellow when needed. With the new system you can still do that but then have the added problem of trying to find/select and pick up the second yellow whilst waving the first - and my way of thinking the first few seconds of the display of the yellow are the most important as any drivers approaching the danger zone are totally reliant on the single flag signal. Is that the best time to have the flag marshal trying to search round for another flag

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by exflagman

What about the effect of freezing cold wet hands and/or gloves?
What is a 'standard flag pole' - even with the thin poles I had on my own flags it was tricky to hold and CONTROL two flags at once with one hand. That was before you factor in the effects of the weight of water held by the material used in many 'circuit flags' - then it tends to get more tricky.
I think there may be even more unexpected problems.
With the old system it was perfectly possible for a lone flag marshal to provide an 'adequate' blue flag service and still have the capability to switch to a waved yellow when needed. With the new system you can still do that but then have the added problem of trying to find/select and pick up the second yellow whilst waving the first - and my way of thinking the first few seconds of the display of the yellow are the most important as any drivers approaching the danger zone are totally reliant on the single flag signal. Is that the best time to have the flag marshal trying to search round for another flag

Valid points. The answers will appear this season, including a re-evaluation of what "adequately manned" means and whether Stewards will grasp the nettle.

[Chigley]

Stewards will grasp the nettle

Who is going to be the first to stop the stewards and tell them he's solo flagging
and doesn't feel capable or happy about doing so?

[Woolley]

However, we're wandering off the subject, and whatever we think of the new rules, we're also not entitled to start re-interpreting them according to what we think might be happening. The correct signalling for the original question goes:

post 1 - Waved yellow - excercise caution as you are entering a DWY zone
post 2 - DWY - something is happening in the next sector
post 3 - Waved green - you are clear of the obstruction and my sector is clear, normal racing rules apply
post 4 - Waved yellow - excercise caution as you are entering a DWY zone
post 5 - DWY - something is happening in the next sector
post 6 - Waved green - you are clear of the obstruction and my sector is clear, normal racing rules apply
etc, all around the circuit if the situations call for it.

This is not an abnormal situation and hasn't changed just because of the requirement to wave.

The tricky one I've experienced years ago (old rules here) was: prev post, waved yellow; me, stationary yellow; next post, waved yellow. Then the next post went down to stationary and I had to remember to replace my yellow with a green. Which I didn't...

Now that caused a problem as someone took the opportunity to (safely) pass someone, who protested after the race. The phone call came: "what flag were you showing?". "er, nothing, should have been green." So the pass was OK, but did the leader of the two not defend because he hadn't seen a green?

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I would have thought the average sized person could grasp two standard flag poles "Darth Maul" style with one flag thumb-side and the other on the opposite side. Whether that's possible in a wind remains to be seen.

What's your definition of average? I certainly can't do that (unless it's the flags with the really skinny metal poles, which I haven't seen in a long time). I have small hands - to the extent that for flagging, I wear child's karting gloves.

I would also have serious concerns about possible loss of grip. I can think of plenty of flagposts I have been at where it is very possible to wind up dropping a flag and having it end up trackside - or even on the track - particularly if the weather is bad.

At least if you have one hand per flag, it reduces the risk of losing control of one of them.

[deley]

Originally Posted by Chigley

Who is going to be the first to stop the stewards and tell them he's solo flagging
and doesn't feel capable or happy about doing so?

couldn't possibly comment on the chances of such a scenario happening

[The Fat Clerk]

You and me both

[JimW]

Flags - so 20th century. Bring on decently designed lights and confine rags to the bin.

Too much flagging is wildly overdone and much not needed. Turn to FIA style use of the blue for lapping only.



Jim

[The Fat Clerk]

What a bloody good idea Jim, it works in Karting.

[Guinness2702]

Originally Posted by Woolley

whatever we think of the new rules, we're also not entitled to start re-interpreting them according to what we think might be happening

However, I have noticed that since the S/C rules were changed to require waved yellow at all times, more marshals choose to not bother waving it when there are no cars nearby, than do wave it. (Okay, that might be overstating it a little, but there I see S/C and stationary yellow a lot).

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

What's your definition of average?...

Ahem ...

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Ahem ...

Attachment 42149

Downloading a diagram from the internet is not *your* definition of average....

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Downloading a diagram from the internet is not *your* definition of average....

Eeeeeh, Lass. I can't have my own definition any more than my own opinion of the speed of light. It's statistics. Damned statistics in fact.

I agree that the mean, median or mode could equally describe the representation of a central tendency in a data subset of N, itself representing only a sample of the population without reference to unaccounted errors and biases, but now it just gets silly.

Suffice it to say that I suspect your diminutive hand size probably represents a figure towards the lighter end of the normal distribution curve. On the other hand I suspect your ability to smack a smart-arse about the chops definitely falls the other side. I shall enquire of y'man next time I see him.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Ahem ...

Attachment 42149

But that assumes a "Normal" distribution. Possibly the most abused statistical concept - EVER!

Jim

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by JimW

But that assumes a "Normal" distribution. Possibly the most abused statistical concept - EVER!

Jim

Lies, damned lies and statistics...